## anonymous 5 years ago calculus : find volume of revolution for region bounded by y = sqrt x, y = 0, x = 4, x = 6 , about the line x = 6 (using shell method i think)

1. watchmath

$$\int_4^6 2\pi(6-x)\sqrt{x}\,dx$$

2. anonymous

the book says 0 to 4, must be a mistake

3. watchmath

well if the problem is written exactly what you wrote above the integral should be from x=4 to x=6.

4. toxicsugar22

contrasat can u help me

5. toxicsugar22

6. toxicsugar22

4x^2-6y^2+32x-24y+16=0 give the exact coordinated of an four points

7. toxicsugar22

i will give u a medal

8. anonymous

whats the question

9. toxicsugar22

4x^2-6y^2+32x-24y+16=0 give the exact coordinated of an four points

10. anonymous

coordinated is not a word

11. anonymous

of an 4 points? thats not proper english grammar

12. toxicsugar22

ok

13. toxicsugar22

can u help me

14. anonymous

15. toxicsugar22

4x^2-6y^2+32x-24y+16=0 give the exact coordinates of any four points

16. toxicsugar22

on the hyperbola

17. anonymous

ok first change that to a standard hyperbola

18. anonymous

4 ( x^2 - 8x + ? ) - 6 ( y^2 +4 + ? ) + 16 = 0

19. toxicsugar22

ok

20. anonymous

mistake 4 ( x^2 + 8x + ? ) - 6 ( y^2 +4 + ? ) + 16 = 0

21. toxicsugar22

ok

22. anonymous

4 ( x^2 + 8x + (8/2)^2 - (8/2)^2 ) - 6..

23. anonymous

theres an easier way to do this

24. anonymous

just plug in x = 0, and see what you get for y , then x = 1, etc

25. anonymous

4x^2-6y^2+32x-24y+16=0 so if x = 0, we have 0 - 6y^2 + 0 - 24 y + 16 = 0

26. toxicsugar22

ok

27. anonymous

28. toxicsugar22

ok so this is the quadractic -6y^2-24y+16=0

29. toxicsugar22

is that right

30. anonymous

yes

31. anonymous

ok these are not easy coordinates this way

32. toxicsugar22

can i use foil

33. anonymous

you can use quadratic formula, but this is not an easy approach to find 4 coordinates

34. toxicsugar22

can u help me

35. anonymous

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

36. anonymous

where is my medal

37. toxicsugar22

i got 92 and 68 but i think i did it wrong can u help me

38. anonymous

where is my medal

39. toxicsugar22

i gave u it

40. anonymous

YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!

41. toxicsugar22

can u help me

42. toxicsugar22

43. toxicsugar22

44. anonymous

45. toxicsugar22

what

46. anonymous

i get y = funny bananas

47. anonymous

too much work man

48. toxicsugar22

can u help me

49. anonymous

here, lets do it anothe rway

50. anonymous

YYYYYYYYYYYEEEEESSSSSSSS!!!!!

51. toxicsugar22

52. anonymous

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS $\prime \prime \prime \prime \prime \prime \prime ^{^{^{^{ddd ^{^{^{^{ddd \sqrt[\sqrt[\sqrt[\sqrt[?]{?}]{?}]{?}]{?}}}}}}}}}$

53. toxicsugar22

are u going to help me or no casue it is rude

54. anonymous

4( x^2 + 8x + (8/2)^2 - (8/2)^2 -

55. anonymous

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

56. anonymous

one moment, stand by

57. anonymous

4( x^2 + 8x + (8/2)^2 - (8/2)^2) - 6 ( y^2 + 4y +(4/2)^2 - (4/2)^2 ) + 16 = 0

58. toxicsugar22

ok

59. toxicsugar22

ok

60. toxicsugar22

i dont mean to rush u but can u hurry up

61. anonymous

im trying my best

62. anonymous

are you girl or boy

63. toxicsugar22

a boy

64. anonymous

4 ( (x + 4)^2 - 4^2 ) - 16 ( (y+2)^2 - 4 ) + 16 = 0 , agreed?

65. anonymous

i completed the square

66. toxicsugar22

yes

67. toxicsugar22

can u help me now finding the four pointd

68. toxicsugar22

points

69. anonymous

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

70. anonymous

4 ( (x + 4)^2 - 4^2 ) - 16 ( (y+2)^2 - 4 ) + 16 = 0 4 ( x+4)^2 - 4^3 - 16 ( y+2)^2 + 16*4 + 16 = 0

71. toxicsugar22

ok

72. anonymous

4 ( x + 4) ^2 - 16 ( y+2)^2 = 4^3 -16*4 - 16

73. anonymous

4 ( x+4)^2 - 16 (y+2))^2 = -16

74. anonymous

-(x+4)^2 / 4 + (y+2)^2 / 1 = 1

75. anonymous

now solve for y

76. anonymous

(y+2)^2 = ( x+4)^2/4 , square root both sides

77. anonymous

so abs (y+2) = abs(x+4)/2

78. anonymous

+ - (y+2) = + - (x + 4)/2

79. toxicsugar22

so what are the points

80. toxicsugar22

u making me cry

81. anonymous

we're almost there

82. toxicsugar22

what are the points

83. toxicsugar22

84. anonymous

i made a mistak,e one sec

85. anonymous

YOURE MAKING ME CRY< lol

86. anonymous

dont cry, just take a deep breath , drink some water

87. toxicsugar22

ok

88. anonymous

ok, i have to go back and find the mistake one sec

89. anonymous

fresh piece of paper

90. toxicsugar22

ok

91. toxicsugar22

i postef a new post

92. anonymous

ok NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

93. toxicsugar22

what

94. anonymous

nevermind

95. anonymous

ok

96. anonymous

(y+2)^2 /1^2 - (x+4)^2 / 4 = 1

97. anonymous

(y+2)^2 = 1 + (x+4)^2 /4

98. anonymous

y = + - sqrt ( 1 + (x+4)^2/4)

99. anonymous

typo y+2 = + - sqrt ( 1 + (x+4)^2/4)

100. anonymous

y = -2 + - sqrt ( 1 + (x+4)^2/4 )

101. anonymous

now we can plug in calculator and find nice points

102. toxicsugar22

can u help me

103. anonymous

(-4,-1) , thats one point

104. anonymous

not many nice integer points

105. toxicsugar22

oh

106. anonymous

ok i did it again, got a diferent answer

107. anonymous

4( x+4)^2 - 6 ( y + 2)^2 = 24

108. toxicsugar22

ok

109. anonymous

(y+2)^2 = 4 [ (x+4)^2/6 - 1 ]

110. anonymous

y = -2 + - 2 *sqrt [ (x+4)^2 /6 -1 ]

111. toxicsugar22

ok

112. toxicsugar22

can u help

113. toxicsugar22

further

114. anonymous

ok

115. toxicsugar22

ok then i will go to bed good night thanks for the help buddy

116. toxicsugar22

ok then help me

117. anonymous

who gave you this question

118. toxicsugar22

the school

119. toxicsugar22

its a homework question but it is okay good night

120. toxicsugar22

i am going to bed i am tired

121. anonymous

im almost done

122. toxicsugar22

ok

123. anonymous

ok here is one point ( 5, 5sqrt 2 -2 )

124. anonymous

( 1, sqrt 114 /3 - 2 )

125. anonymous

toxic, let me work on this , and i will tell you tomorrow , ok?

126. toxicsugar22

okk then good night

127. anonymous

oh wait it does work

128. anonymous

ok im confident i found the right equation

129. anonymous

yay!!!

130. toxicsugar22

good

131. anonymous

ok let me give you two other points

132. anonymous

oh by symmetry we can just take the negative of the two points we have ( 5, + - [5sqrt(2) -2 )

133. anonymous

oh wait, we cant , i take that back

134. anonymous

ok so 4 points are ( 5 , 5 sqrt (2) -2 ) , ( 5 , -5sqrt (2) - 2 )

135. anonymous

( 1, sqrt(114)/3 -2 ) , ( 1, -sqrt(114)/3 - 2 )

136. anonymous

took me a litle while, but i got the answer , :)

137. anonymous

oh man, theres a much easier way to solve this, woops

138. anonymous

set x = 0, you get two y solutions by quadratic formula. THen set y = 0 , you get two x solutions by quadratic formula

139. anonymous

its much faster than actually finding the hyperbola. but this works as well.

140. toxicsugar22

ok can u tell me tommorow im tired

141. anonymous

so if you set x = 0 , we have -6y^2 -24y + 16 = 0 , if you set y = 0 you have 4x^2 +32x + 16 = 0

142. anonymous

so you get ( 0, y1) (0,y2) and then ( x1, 0) (x2,0) for the second part

143. toxicsugar22

im tired

144. anonymous

one sec, i have it , 4 nice solutions

145. anonymous

where is the fraction bar

146. toxicsugar22

hurry up

147. anonymous

i want to use latex, i cant find the fraction bar

148. anonymous

y = -(-2) + - sqrt ( 24^2 - 4 (-6)*16) / ( 2*-6)

149. anonymous

y =[ -(-2) + - sqrt ( 24^2 - 4 *-6*16) ] / ( 2*-6)

150. toxicsugar22

151. anonymous

wait

152. anonymous

( 0 , 8/3 -2/3 sqrt 22) ( 0 , 8/3 +2/3 sqrt 22)

153. anonymous

scratch that

154. anonymous

rned games. :You have 10 or more stored games, please deal with them promptly. :You will not be able to start new games if you reach 16 stored games. :Visit http://www.freechess.org/Adjudicate/ to submit adjudication requests. :For more information read "help adjudicate". :Please note that closing your interface while playing does not mean you resign the ongoing game. :If you have any questions please message Adjudicate. : :This is an automatically generated message. tell 40 im ready to drop an atheist bomb riemanngalois(40): im ready to drop an atheist bomb (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , ok... where is the evidence for god? riemanngalois(40): ok... where is the evidence for god? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): i have several russian friends named constantine Mapleleaf(40): seems a more popular name there , if god exists, how come there is no evidence for god that i know of, heard of, seen, experienced , sensed, touched upon, etc riemanngalois(40): if god exists, how come there is no evidence for god that i know of, heard of, seen, experienced , sensed, touched upon, etc (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): christians.. couldnt wait to kill each other tho , all we have are stories, like the stories of alien abductions riemanngalois(40): all we have are stories, like the stories of alien abductions (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") RxR(40): the last real leader of the soviet union was a konstantin I think Mapleleaf(40): riem what about the anthropic principle ;) , if we take seriously the bible stories, then i must accept every testimony such as alien abductions riemanngalois(40): if we take seriously the bible stories, then i must accept every testimony such as alien abductions (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , maple, what about it? riemanngalois(40): maple, what about it? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): well its not zero mekkis(40): the first schism was about.. wait for it.. was god one person or three? , maple, isnt that a physics principle? riemanngalois(40): maple, isnt that a physics principle? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Valiantangel(40): Mmm RxR is infactuated with Constantine today:) Mapleleaf(40): evidence is not zero ;) , ok riemanngalois(40): ok (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , but you have to show a connection between god and anthropic principle riemanngalois(40): but you have to show a connection between god and anthropic principle (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , offhand i have to remind myself what that is riemanngalois(40): offhand i have to remind myself what that is (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): im just saying its not zero ;) , but i think its been refuted riemanngalois(40): but i think its been refuted (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , ok, let me rephrase that. what gives , why is there a dearth of evidence for god? riemanngalois(40): ok, let me rephrase that. what gives , why is there a dearth of evidence for god? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): if b3 was here he would be all about an holy trinity rite now , why is it every scientific discovery seems to chip away at the faith of religious people? riemanngalois(40): why is it every scientific discovery seems to chip away at the faith of religious people? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , is god purposely trying to trick scientists into thinking god does not exist? riemanngalois(40): is god purposely trying to trick scientists into thinking god does not exist? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): try bud drty Mapleleaf(40): i would say that the nature of religious belief is such that the evidence isnt easy to communicate...its personal in nature mekkis(40): why ax why try bud dry RxR(40): reimanng this is one of the strongest arguments against religion. there is no good counter , well, i guess i shouldnt worry about it. i only think about it because there are still believers who harass me with their views riemanngalois(40): well, i guess i shouldnt worry about it. i only think about it because there are still believers who harass me with their views (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , maple, then its a matter of psychology? riemanngalois(40): maple, then its a matter of psychology? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , sounds like god is a chemical imbalance to me Mapleleaf(40): rxr i dont see it riemanngalois(40): sounds like god is a chemical imbalance to me (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): rxr i definitely dont see why thats a good argument mekkis(40): reimandsum! lol , why cant god throw believers a bone? something? riemanngalois(40): why cant god throw believers a bone? something? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): someone can explain their love for their children, but showing concrete evidence for it is conflating different subjects and issues , well its a challenge to remain a believer , thats all i can say. i see no compelling reason to say god exists. but it is a hypothesis that has merit . (so is the hypothesis that the universe always existed) riemanngalois(40): well its a challenge to remain a believer , thats all i can say. i see no compelling reason to say god exists. but it is a hypothesis that has merit . (so is the hypothesis that the universe always existed) (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): maple speaks different language , maple wants to believe :) riemanngalois(40): maple wants to believe :) (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , im skeptical , its different riemanngalois(40): im skeptical , its different (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): really christians for example, will be using something like witness acounts for evidence...and i suppose islam as well , so do alien abductees riemanngalois(40): so do alien abductees (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , please dont discount their testimony riemanngalois(40): please dont discount their testimony (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): so what riem... mekkis(40): maple still drunk from last night Chessmatics shouts: kenzo , why dont you take alien abductions seriously? riemanngalois(40): why dont you take alien abductions seriously? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): you dont see how what you are saying is irrelavent to the basic question mekkis(40): hey? , no it is relevant riemanngalois(40): no it is relevant (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): and thats why you and rxr dont understand why these basically arent good arguments i guess , we are establishing the criterion of evidence, are we not? riemanngalois(40): we are establishing the criterion of evidence, are we not? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): lol Mapleleaf(40): something like problem of evil is a more telling criticism of religion Rutherford(40): i think that before there is a discussion about god, one must define what that is or means. only then can one take such a discussion forward mekkis(40): i like reimandsum , christians laugh at alien abductions. what hypocrites riemanngalois(40): christians laugh at alien abductions. what hypocrites (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): because it responds directly to the assumptions religious believers are making Mapleleaf(40): just an exmple , the testimony for jesus is as valid as the testimony for alien abductions riemanngalois(40): the testimony for jesus is as valid as the testimony for alien abductions (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , most humans dont take alien abductions seriously. riemanngalois(40): most humans dont take alien abductions seriously. (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") naomi(40): jres do naomi(40): jews Mapleleaf(40): i dont really believe it works either, but, you get directly into the believe system and its assumptions that way Mapleleaf(40): *belief system Mapleleaf(40): but im not laughign at it riem...im saying its irrelavent , the evidence should be proportionate to the uncommonness of the claim riemanngalois(40): the evidence should be proportionate to the uncommonness of the claim (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): you seem like a smart enough guy riem..i dont know why you dont get it ;) , maple, if you said that i had a coffee this morning, i would accept your testimony riemanngalois(40): maple, if you said that i had a coffee this morning, i would accept your testimony (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , if you said that you turned your coffee into wine, i wouldnt believe you riemanngalois(40): if you said that you turned your coffee into wine, i wouldnt believe you (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , i dont know why you dont get it riemanngalois(40): i dont know why you dont get it (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem if you cant show objects exist, how can you have had a coffee? RxR(40): Bertrand Russell was reportedly once asked what he would say to God if he were to find himself confronted by the Almighty about why he had not believed in God?s existence. He said that he would tell God "Not enough evidence, God, not enough evidence! Mapleleaf(40): this is the basic question peple like you cant understand , maple, how is that relevant naomi(40): people like me? riemanngalois(40): maple, how is that relevant (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , maple, we both accept an external reality exists, right? riemanngalois(40): maple, we both accept an external reality exists, right? (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): rxr think of what evidence is Mapleleaf(40): rxr usually you are talking about emprricism when you talk about evidence , maple, there is no need to go back to first principles, but if you like i can state them riemanngalois(40): maple, there is no need to go back to first principles, but if you like i can state them (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): bertrand russsel is an illusion.. a uh whatucallit --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'munnu) **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" Mapleleaf(40): rxr thats why when the issue was first raised i approached it it by talking about the anthopic principle , maple, i accept there is an external reality riemanngalois(40): maple, i accept there is an external reality (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Punkyyyy(40): Maple :D Mapleleaf(40): riem on what basis RxR(40): in mapleleafs discussion vs Bertrand Russell, I tend to think Bertrand Russell is right Punkyyyy(40): Rie :D , maple, it doesnt matter riemanngalois(40): maple, it doesnt matter (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , you dont have to justify every belief. it would lead to a vicious regression riemanngalois(40): you dont have to justify every belief. it would lead to a vicious regression (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): rxr i agree with russell on a lot of deeper issues, just not religion...which he never conntected to his metaphysics Punkyyyy(40): :] , maple, i agree that not all our beliefs are rational. riemanngalois(40): maple, i agree that not all our beliefs are rational. (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , but that doesnt mean they should be unreasonable riemanngalois(40): but that doesnt mean they should be unreasonable (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): rxr he never made a religious argument foundationally connected to logical positivism or propositions etc Punkyyyy(40): Pipal :) Hashisheen(40): belief in fsm is not irrational. Punkyyyy(40): Maple is female' Mapleleaf(40): riem depends on what you mean by rational Mapleleaf(40): if you mean empiricism, then no , maple, if you dont believe in an external reality, i wouldnt even know what that entails riemanngalois(40): maple, if you dont believe in an external reality, i wouldnt even know what that entails (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): yes maple lleaf = a female , maple, would you stop eating? probably not riemanngalois(40): maple, would you stop eating? probably not (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Punkyyyy(40): :)) RxR(40): people who believe in God must think the evidence is strong enough of course. Bertrand Russell disagreed. Mapleleaf(40): here is an example ive raised a thousand times in this channel. on what basis do you assume you can cross the street on a green light, or the walking man (in canada) , maple, but i dont want to get into technical philosophy. i bet your good at that :) . im just using what ive gleaned from wiser men than me riemanngalois(40): maple, but i dont want to get into technical philosophy. i bet your good at that :) . im just using what ive gleaned from wiser men than me (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Punkyyyy(40): Pls stop Punkyyyy(40): Ur making me dizzy Punkyyyy(40): * U R , maple, yes induction is not rational. but i think one can justify it by saying, its the simplest approach to a myriad of possibilities riemanngalois(40): maple, yes induction is not rational. but i think one can justify it by saying, its the simplest approach to a myriad of possibilities (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): in cnada they eat moose wingspan.. case closed Mapleleaf(40): rxr russel was an atheist out of emotion. his speech, why i am not a christian was mostly bashing and not really a serious set of arguments RxR(40): bertrand russell isvery clear on this, no reason to get dizzy Mapleleaf(40): now ive read 'why i am not a christian' have you? RxR(40): mapleleaf I have not ideogram(40): http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2011/05/atheists-do-it-better.html , maple, never heard of it riemanngalois(40): maple, never heard of it (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): ive also read russells history of western philosophy where he gives many religious comments...and all were bashing...no serious arguments whatsoever Mapleleaf(40): now give me a serious argument against religion..dont just throw out the name of someone well known not to have any ideogram(40): a serious argument _against_ religion? --> munnu ok RxR(40): The point about lack of proof is excellent ideogram(40): you mean like proving a negative? Plebusan(40): fi all arguments against religion is labeled bashing, then its hard to give a non-bashing argument , maple, induction simplifies the possibilities that can occur when one drives over a bridge. if it does not behave like the past, it can collapse, turn into a giant hammer and clobber you, so on and so forth. it is more economical to suppose, it will behave like the past riemanngalois(40): maple, induction simplifies the possibilities that can occur when one drives over a bridge. if it does not behave like the past, it can collapse, turn into a giant hammer and clobber you, so on and so forth. it is more economical to suppose, it will behave like the past (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): no negatives please. mekkis(40): bertrand russel .. u mention his name .. this doesnt mean anything ideogram(40): "God exists." "Prove it." "No, you prove it." , but thats circular, since im using the past to say that its more economical? riemanngalois(40): but thats circular, since im using the past to say that its more economical? (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") RxR(40): It would be very easy for God, the christian God, to prove his existence. , maple, but why do religious people have to go to such skeptical extremes to validate their faith riemanngalois(40): maple, but why do religious people have to go to such skeptical extremes to validate their faith (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , that seems to be self defeating riemanngalois(40): that seems to be self defeating (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , maple is somewhere , he has the floor :) riemanngalois(40): maple is somewhere , he has the floor :) (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'MrBugBlind) , at least you dont just paste bible verses and call us devil posessed riemanngalois(40): at least you dont just paste bible verses and call us devil posessed (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Punkyyyy(40): He' Punkyyyy(40): Maple is a he' , i knew this group of christians that were very angry when i said it doesnt seem logical to pray for sinners and not study for classes riemanngalois(40): i knew this group of christians that were very angry when i said it doesnt seem logical to pray for sinners and not study for classes (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , i think so riemanngalois(40): i think so (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , i said i think god would understand that you are using the time for studying, so you dont waste all the money you spent on college riemanngalois(40): i said i think god would understand that you are using the time for studying, so you dont waste all the money you spent on college (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , you can spend time praying after you finish college riemanngalois(40): you can spend time praying after you finish college (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , they wanted to lynch me riemanngalois(40): they wanted to lynch me (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") RxR(40): ob 315 to understand why valiantangel suddenly went quiet , rxr, so what were you saying, is the strongest argument against god? riemanngalois(40): rxr, so what were you saying, is the strongest argument against god? (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , yes, the lack of evidence. god is either purposely obfuscating scientists and trying to remain hidden, or he is impotent, or he doesnt exist riemanngalois(40): yes, the lack of evidence. god is either purposely obfuscating scientists and trying to remain hidden, or he is impotent, or he doesnt exist (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , because biblically, it seems god seems to interact and save the day whenever the characters are in a jam riemanngalois(40): because biblically, it seems god seems to interact and save the day whenever the characters are in a jam (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , im in a jam a lot, god doesnt intervene. ive seen people shot, no intervention riemanngalois(40): im in a jam a lot, god doesnt intervene. ive seen people shot, no intervention (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , but for some odd reason, the bible characters get saved all the time. that seems strange riemanngalois(40): but for some odd reason, the bible characters get saved all the time. that seems strange (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") RxR(40): I think science chipping away at the realm of religion is the strongest argument sucaba(40): I think the question of existence of god is different from bashing or praising religion , rxr, yeah riemanngalois(40): rxr, yeah (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") sucaba(40): you can't seriously deny the existence of religion , right, i argue its a psychological need riemanngalois(40): right, i argue its a psychological need (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , look at prisons, and the number of people who become religious fanatics riemanngalois(40): look at prisons, and the number of people who become religious fanatics (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): its hard to chat with you riem because you never respond to my points, yet i always respond to yours , prisons are interesting, because you can see human behavior under stress, observe it riemanngalois(40): prisons are interesting, because you can see human behavior under stress, observe it (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , maple, i did respond, you disappeared riemanngalois(40): maple, i did respond, you disappeared (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): respond to the basic issue , well i tried to riemanngalois(40): well i tried to (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , which is? as i said above, it is self defeating to appeal to skepticism to validate your god riemanngalois(40): which is? as i said above, it is self defeating to appeal to skepticism to validate your god (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): USA prisons they have air conditioning.. cable tv.. basketbal court Mapleleaf(40): riem what is it religious bleievers are saying about the world you dont agree with , mekkis, and gang wars, rape, fights, love, friendship, brutality riemanngalois(40): mekkis, and gang wars, rape, fights, love, friendship, brutality (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): if u r gay u need just to go in prison , maple, where is the evidence for god? miracles? riemanngalois(40): maple, where is the evidence for god? miracles? (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , why is the evidence for jesus any different than the evidence for elvis sightings riemanngalois(40): why is the evidence for jesus any different than the evidence for elvis sightings (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , people believe they saw elvis after he died. they swear it, etc riemanngalois(40): people believe they saw elvis after he died. they swear it, etc (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): here is a problem for both atheists and theists...if you were to say..well how should each of their worlds look like...it could basiclaly be the same (so only the skeptic can survive this criticism and no atheist can be called a skeptic) mekkis(40): reimandsum been there in the joint? , maple, pretty much everything religious people say is just extremely primitive riemanngalois(40): maple, pretty much everything religious people say is just extremely primitive (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , mekkis, i watch prison shows :) riemanngalois(40): mekkis, i watch prison shows :) (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): I call myself an atheist mainly because theists annoy me Mapleleaf(40): i mean how can any atheist (or theist for that matter) get beyond that basic question about empiricism (i know i have my answer..which ive said many times here) mekkis(40): lol\ ideogram(40): so I want to distance myself from them as much as possible Introspection(40): I have seen no evidence that Bertrand Russel existed in my life time. Introspection(40): So should I assume he never existed? Mapleleaf(40): ideo you at least have the courage to say you will take a position on emotion..some are afraid to say that Introspection(40): That is hte problem with his logic. , maple, i dont understand, their worlds look like? riemanngalois(40): maple, i dont understand, their worlds look like? (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): well maple, I've said many times rationality is limited Introspection(40): Of course if one denied God his whole life God is not going to show him evidence. Mapleleaf(40): riem the world your experiene presents to you..the world based on empiricism , what about it? riemanngalois(40): what about it? (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Introspection(40): But the truth is that ther is plenty of evidence of God in his creation alone but most scientists reject htis and loof for other solutions mekkis(40): it is question.. did bertrand russel ever exist at all? , theists and atheists have the same belief, the external reality exists riemanngalois(40): theists and atheists have the same belief, the external reality exists (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): you see riem you dont want to hear a counter argument or pay attention to it , for the most part riemanngalois(40): for the most part (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Introspection(40): Like everything evolved from primordial soup over billions of years etc. , maple, theres only a few theists who would go so far as to say this external reality does not exist riemanngalois(40): maple, theres only a few theists who would go so far as to say this external reality does not exist (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Introspection(40): which taeks m far more faith to believe in imo. , maple, im trying to follow your argument. you seem impatient riemanngalois(40): maple, im trying to follow your argument. you seem impatient (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , i repeat, atheists and theists start from the same assumptions as far as empiricism go, ie, external reality exists, riemanngalois(40): i repeat, atheists and theists start from the same assumptions as far as empiricism go, ie, external reality exists, (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem arent theists saying external reality exists even more forcefully than atheists? but that doesnt answer my basic question for both , huh? riemanngalois(40): huh? (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): big bang Mapleleaf(40): riem and how they answer it bascailly explains their position independently , why would theists say that? riemanngalois(40): why would theists say that? (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem and only the skeptic..which can never be an atheist...can go on without having that extra problem to deal with , because god makes the external reality happen? riemanngalois(40): because god makes the external reality happen? (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): but im neither a skeptic or an atheist, so i have to answer it in my outline of my position **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" , i dont really understand. as i said earlier, theists and atheists start from the same assumption that reality exists, before the issue of god comes into play riemanngalois(40): i dont really understand. as i said earlier, theists and atheists start from the same assumption that reality exists, before the issue of god comes into play (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): I'm totally fascinated by this Harold Camping guy ideogram(40): I can't wait to hear what he says Plebusan(40): he is hiding in his addict, trying to convience people he was raptured , he is either a liar or self deluded? riemanngalois(40): he is either a liar or self deluded? (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): did he dissapear? Introspection(40): lol hiding is attic! Introspection(40): Taht would be funny if it were really true? , some guy blew 100 k on that theory riemanngalois(40): some guy blew 100 k on that theory (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , the hypothesis that they will be raptured riemanngalois(40): the hypothesis that they will be raptured (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): yesterday the world ended.. as we know it.. b3 was called yp Introspection(40): Why can't he both Riem? ideogram(40): they say he is at home but they are not answering the phone or the door Introspection(40): Isn't that what lying is? Deluding yurself nad others/ , intro, a little bit of both? riemanngalois(40): intro, a little bit of both? (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): "Rapture, chapter 2: The search for Camping" ideogram(40): I'd bet he believes what he's saying , its possible. he says he used mathematical precision to determine the dates riemanngalois(40): its possible. he says he used mathematical precision to determine the dates (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , according to wikipedia riemanngalois(40): according to wikipedia (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Introspection(40): Lol I wouldn't either... unless c of course it was JWs ;-) , did the spirit lead him? i wonder riemanngalois(40): did the spirit lead him? i wonder (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Introspection(40): He wouldn't know mathematical precision if it bite him in the tabernacles. Introspection(40): *bit) , then it was a false spirit, or god is trying to test him. religious people are good at coming up with ad hoc reasoning riemanngalois(40): then it was a false spirit, or god is trying to test him. religious people are good at coming up with ad hoc reasoning (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , their beliefs are not falsifiable riemanngalois(40): their beliefs are not falsifiable (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , he might lose a few congregants, but he will be back riemanngalois(40): he might lose a few congregants, but he will be back (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , lol. as long as their are mentally unstable people riemanngalois(40): lol. as long as their are mentally unstable people (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): well, riem, surely this one was eminently falsifiable? , plk, no , he has some ad hoc reasoning im sure riemanngalois(40): plk, no , he has some ad hoc reasoning im sure (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): no, he made a clear prediction , just wait, he will say something like god is testing him riemanngalois(40): just wait, he will say something like god is testing him (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , plk, to you. youre not religious riemanngalois(40): plk, to you. youre not religious (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Introspection(40): Yes always the inherent danger of a false prphecy. , harold was wrong before by the way riemanngalois(40): harold was wrong before by the way (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): it wasn't only falsifiable. It was falsified. , he predicted in the 90s the world was going to end riemanngalois(40): he predicted in the 90s the world was going to end (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , this did not deter him riemanngalois(40): this did not deter him (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): its interesting that the atheits here always go after the straw man and never present belief or christianity in its best light. it shows me they arent serious about their investigation either , maple, i hope someone can understand what youre talking about :) riemanngalois(40): maple, i hope someone can understand what youre talking about :) (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , i have no clue. riemanngalois(40): i have no clue. (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): you are right, maple :) Mapleleaf(40): why go after someone like this guy ideo mentioned...why not go after me for example? Mapleleaf(40): its because you arent serious Introspection(40): My guess is that some software is corrupted. , as ive said before, theists and atheists believe in an external reality. thats not much of an issue really. riemanngalois(40): as ive said before, theists and atheists believe in an external reality. thats not much of an issue really. (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): candians = easy targetr Mapleleaf(40): its because your investigation isnt serious , this is serious tangent riemanngalois(40): this is serious tangent (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): nobody owes it to you to make your arguments for you , sorry, youre going off on a tangent . riemanngalois(40): sorry, youre going off on a tangent . (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , tangential riemanngalois(40): tangential (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") indyknight shouts: running Malware bytes Mapleleaf(40): you only consider straw men and not the strongest possible version of your opponents position, then you arent actually serious about saying christianity or belief in God is suspect Mapleleaf(40): that is the only conclusion i can make Introspection(40): Clearly it is the connection at your location. , maple, theists and atheists have a common agreement about reality, for the most part riemanngalois(40): maple, theists and atheists have a common agreement about reality, for the most part (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): you havent answered my question about empiricism because its so much easier to attack some guy in the news...but it just shows you arent willing to think seriously about this issue , no contention there, as far as anthropic principle goes, you can check plato encyclopedia online, its been refuted riemanngalois(40): no contention there, as far as anthropic principle goes, you can check plato encyclopedia online, its been refuted (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> klanga Usernames will be posted , i encourage you to check it riemanngalois(40): i encourage you to check it (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): where is philo...at least he answeres the questions directly , whats youre question about empiricism. riemanngalois(40): whats youre question about empiricism. (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): what riem, you need it three times? ideogram(40): maple, this is FICS we are talking about, remember? , maple, i havent seen it riemanngalois(40): maple, i havent seen it (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): dude, this is not the place if you want to be taken seriously Introspection(40): Philo hasn't been seen since yesterday... :-p ideogram(40): hmm, did philo get raptured? Mapleleaf(40): hehe Mapleleaf(40): i wont speculate... mekkis(40): we havent sen b3 otb or preacha today , maple, shoot . i must have missed it in the other tells riemanngalois(40): maple, shoot . i must have missed it in the other tells (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , sometimes i type and dont read other tells riemanngalois(40): sometimes i type and dont read other tells (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , while i am typing riemanngalois(40): while i am typing (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , then i have to scroll up .... riemanngalois(40): then i have to scroll up .... (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): the most vicious attacks on Camping are coming from some paper called the christian post , can you do the question in a sentence or two? riemanngalois(40): can you do the question in a sentence or two? (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): no, riem... you don't say!? :) plk(40): btw, besides scrolling up, you could do "tell chlog show 40" , then i have to read all the other mindless tells riemanngalois(40): then i have to read all the other mindless tells (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , i dislike reading riemanngalois(40): i dislike reading (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> klanga sicko lol plk(40): but you expect 35 people to read all your tells, don't you? , i dont riemanngalois(40): i dont (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , what makes you say that riemanngalois(40): what makes you say that (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , ive got lots of people who have censored me riemanngalois(40): ive got lots of people who have censored me (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , plk, i never tell people to scroll up riemanngalois(40): plk, i never tell people to scroll up (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): well ideo lets see if we make it to the 23rd , plk, unlike maple riemanngalois(40): plk, unlike maple (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): what, it's an off by one error? plk(40): I rather dislike repeating myself too, riem :) ideogram(40): God is a computer programmer? , , plk, and i wont use that as the basis of my argument (oh you didnt read one my tells, so you suck) riemanngalois(40): , plk, and i wont use that as the basis of my argument (oh you didnt read one my tells, so you suck) (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , plk, thats your problem riemanngalois(40): plk, thats your problem (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") pokah shouts: yes indeed :) , plk, im accustomated to repeating myself. riemanngalois(40): plk, im accustomated to repeating myself. (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , accustomed* . riemanngalois(40): accustomed* . (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem i wil repeat the question, i just have to see about my cat for a sec , ok riemanngalois(40): ok (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PaulFranklin(40): This login message is brought to you by William Branham (1909-1965) "Don't expect to know God by education or theology; you know God by being borned again, new birth. The Holy Spirit wrote the Word of God. And He so entangled it in there; He said, "I've hid it from the eyes of the wise and prudent and will reveal it to babes such as will learn." , paul, thats an argument from silence riemanngalois(40): paul, thats an argument from silence (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , paul, the truth about aliens has been hidden from the eyes of the wise and prudent. PaulFranklin(40): argument? i see no discussion riemanngalois(40): paul, the truth about aliens has been hidden from the eyes of the wise and prudent. (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , yes there is an argument there riemanngalois(40): yes there is an argument there (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Introspection(40): The Klingons again?! , for instance, i was talking to an ancient alien believer. he said, the truth about aliens would shut down our society, all govt would stop. so thats why it is suppressed riemanngalois(40): for instance, i was talking to an ancient alien believer. he said, the truth about aliens would shut down our society, all govt would stop. so thats why it is suppressed (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PaulFranklin(40): riemann, the statement of the above quote is clearly "Don't expect to know God by education or theology" ... the rest is filler ideogram(40): I believe he is called Xenu , paul, then what else is left? intuition? riemanngalois(40): paul, then what else is left? intuition? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PaulFranklin(40): faith? --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'nicolaus) Mapleleaf(40): im building an elaborate pully system so that i can play with my cat with minimal effort , paul, it sounds like you are appealing to a low IQ (revealing it to babes) riemanngalois(40): paul, it sounds like you are appealing to a low IQ (revealing it to babes) (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): or maybe the reptilians PaulFranklin(40): to the contrary, I am appealing to all IQs , god reveals himself only to babes and the mentally retarded? riemanngalois(40): god reveals himself only to babes and the mentally retarded? (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PaulFranklin(40): nope PaulFranklin(40): but God is so simply that you don't need any education to know Him , paul, so why doesn't god reveal himself through education? riemanngalois(40): paul, so why doesn't god reveal himself through education? (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PaulFranklin(40): because He didn't choose to do it... ask Him why , paul, clearly that verse doesnt say that riemanngalois(40): paul, clearly that verse doesnt say that (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PaulFranklin(40): have a nice sunday , paul, no, youre the one telling me . riemanngalois(40): paul, no, youre the one telling me . (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , i dont believe god said anything of the sort riemanngalois(40): i dont believe god said anything of the sort (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" PaulFranklin(40): as John Hus put it: if God wanted us to know him through latin theology he'd all let us be born with doctoral degrees , god is so simple, that the smartest people have somehow missed it (how plausible is that? ) riemanngalois(40): god is so simple, that the smartest people have somehow missed it (how plausible is that? ) (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , paul, i never said that riemanngalois(40): paul, i never said that (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , paul, nevermind. go have a nice day praying riemanngalois(40): paul, nevermind. go have a nice day praying (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PaulFranklin(40): thx TheTactician(40): nah, if you're born with something and you don't have to struggle to obtain it, you don't really value it Introspection(40): :-? Mapleleaf(40): ok here's the question...and its for both atheists and theists , ok riemanngalois(40): ok (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): see, christians are anti-intellectual ideogram(40): they are suspicious of intelligence and education PaulFranklin(40): no ideo Mapleleaf(40): how do you tell their worlds apart empirically speaking was the question , what do you mean by "their worlds" riemanngalois(40): what do you mean by "their worlds" (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PaulFranklin(40): i am very pro intelligence... i am just saying that intelligence is not needed to get to know God Mapleleaf(40): and i suggested only the skeptic...which i do not include atheists can avoid this quesiton RxR(40): more people from here really should follow valiantangels dramatic ending in game 315 Introspection(40): Christians are not 2D cardboard co cutouts Idio , wait, slow down. riemanngalois(40): wait, slow down. (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , , maple, what do you mean by "their worlds" riemanngalois(40): , maple, what do you mean by "their worlds" (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Introspection(40): that game been like three hours now? Mapleleaf(40): obviously if an atheists world emprically looks the same as the theists, then when the atheists ask the theists an empricle question, it will come out the same as whatever he thinks hazepawn shouts: when you report someone who is cheating how come nothing happens? Introspection(40): what is the question? I never saw a question ideogram(40): well maple, does god answer prayers or not? , maple claims he asked a question riemanngalois(40): maple claims he asked a question (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> gipp hate playing cowards Introspection(40): Yes I'm still holding my breath ;-) Mapleleaf(40): sure ideo, but what does that have to do with empiricism? ideogram(40): well, don't you think the results of prayer would be empirically testable? , lol, what does it have to do with realism. what the hell is the question? riemanngalois(40): lol, what does it have to do with realism. what the hell is the question? (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'DAV) , maple, do you know what a question is? riemanngalois(40): maple, do you know what a question is? (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") hazepawn shouts: on ICC they boot them right away , maple, here is a question. what is today's date. riemanngalois(40): maple, here is a question. what is today's date. (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): it's real simple -- pray for something empirically testable, like recovering from a disease, in one case, and don't pray for it in another, and see what happens , intro, this is maple's question : Mapleleaf(40): how do you tell their worlds apart empirically speaking was the question riemanngalois(40): intro, this is maple's question : Mapleleaf(40): how do you tell their worlds apart empirically speaking was the question (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): ideo, not wit my understanding of empiricism, because its not something you can communicate to a scientific community....unless a way to collect spiritual data is develped ideogram(40): actually, the experiment I've described has actually been performed Mapleleaf(40): ideo do you remember we had a discussion on the limits of what logic can do? , then maple gets angry when no one knows what he is asking. people, is this question understandable? riemanngalois(40): then maple gets angry when no one knows what he is asking. people, is this question understandable? (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): I don't remember it specifically, but I'm sure I've expressed my opinion to you many times hazepawn shouts: I'v played on this site for nine months with no luck , 'their' , i presume theists or atheist. 'their worlds' , im not sure, paradigms? worldviews? riemanngalois(40): 'their' , i presume theists or atheist. 'their worlds' , im not sure, paradigms? worldviews? (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): ok ideo, well the basic idea is that logic is applied to things we can communicate, and then it cranks out a consistency or inconsistency result...but overall, thats a very limited use Mapleleaf(40): ideo so the point is, you cant make logic something bigger than what it is SaintEmilion shouts: in chess you don't relie on luck, you only win if your chess skills are better than your opponents are ideogram(40): I have to get up in an hour, should I try to sleep? , maple, if you tell me what you mean by 'their worlds' i can attempt to try and answer it. or look into it riemanngalois(40): maple, if you tell me what you mean by 'their worlds' i can attempt to try and answer it. or look into it (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): ideo, the many things we dont have a complete phrase to evaluate its consistency, will just come out "indeterminate" logically speaking...and thats most things , maple and philo both give me a headache, im out guys riemanngalois(40): maple and philo both give me a headache, im out guys (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): ideo, so im making a kind of analogy to empirisim here...there is the realm of things we can evaluate ..but there is a vast amount of things just not covered by it Mapleleaf(40): like objects in the room you are in etc Mapleleaf(40): brain in a vat etc hazepawn shouts: that's fair but what is not fair is when someone cheats thats all i'm saying, I dont need help to win or lose Mapleleaf(40): these are puzzles that have shown for centuries the limits of empiricism hazepawn shouts: if I wanted to play a chess program I have several of my own to play RxR(40): valiantangel, nice save in the end there! SaintEmilion shouts: if you want to reduce playing with cheats then play in the many tourneys we have here tell rxr hello (told RxR) Mapleleaf(40): so if someone takes the entire set of empiricle available data to a theists and the set of data to an atheist...and i mean communicatable data in a scientific journal....its going to basically look the same...and both sides will be forced to show how their set of beliefs is consistent with that set of available data . do you know what maple is asking, as far as (told RxR) . Mapleleaf(40): how do you tell their worlds apart empirically speaking was the question (told RxR) . im stumped (told RxR) ideogram(40): maple, either prayers are answered or not, which yields different data Mapleleaf(40): rxr are you referencing a football game ;) Mapleleaf(40): mine seem to be ideo ;) Mapleleaf(40): but how can i communicate the truth of that to you? RxR tells you: maple is just using stalling tactics by using meaningless questions with nice words to make others feel inferior . but what is the question? its infuriating i cant decipher it (told RxR) . but i think he truly believes it, so they are not stalling tactics to him (told RxR) Plebusan(40): just pray for the sun to rise each morning, and you will prove Gods existence every day RxR tells you: let me see I need to scroll up for context. not sure it has a meaning at all , maple, clarity is not one of your strong points riemanngalois(40): maple, clarity is not one of your strong points (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): Maple, like any scientific experiment, you establish a control, where people don't pray for someone's recovery, and then get people to pray for the recovery of someone else, and see if there is a differenc in outcomes , ,lol riemanngalois(40): ,lol (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") RxR tells you: too messy to find any context , you know, you may disagree with what i say, but i think i do a better job at communicating riemanngalois(40): you know, you may disagree with what i say, but i think i do a better job at communicating (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem actually its not clarity you are really talking about there , maple, youre all over the place riemanngalois(40): maple, youre all over the place (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'bazinga) , empiricism, data, but i trust you know your stuff riemanngalois(40): empiricism, data, but i trust you know your stuff (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , try to organize it i guess riemanngalois(40): try to organize it i guess (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): not that it's the case here necessarily, but, it doesn't matter how clearly and eloquently you speak to a deaf ear :) timewsy tells you: this guy always has very cracked discussions timewsy tells you: cant get through to him and what he says is poo Mapleleaf(40): riem because its a big issue Mapleleaf(40): there are a lot of parts to it , ok riemanngalois(40): ok (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") timewsy(40): whats the issue today fellas RxR tells you: you are falling for mapleleafs confusion tactics here , so youre saying the theist worldview is no worse (or better) than an atheist/scientist point of view? riemanngalois(40): so youre saying the theist worldview is no worse (or better) than an atheist/scientist point of view? (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): but a complicated legal contract can be called clear if the lawyer has eliminated all ambiguity from every clause . well i give him the benefit of the doubt (told RxR) timewsy(40): i put the oven on brb , maple, im not worried about the ambiguity. im lost on the intent or thrust of the argument riemanngalois(40): maple, im not worried about the ambiguity. im lost on the intent or thrust of the argument (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): ok riem , i think this falls under the umbrella term, presupposationalism , riemanngalois(40): i think this falls under the umbrella term, presupposationalism , (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem the basic idea is that what we can know through empiricism is the same for theists and atheists...their picture of the world empirically speaking is the same ideogram(40): no it's not Mapleleaf(40): riem so my question to both sides...is how do they explain that , its an apologetic defense, let me find the wikipedia, one sec riemanngalois(40): its an apologetic defense, let me find the wikipedia, one sec (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): I told you this several times, either prayers get answered or they don't , maple, correct, empirically its the same for theists or atheists riemanngalois(40): maple, correct, empirically its the same for theists or atheists (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem empiricle data at least in theory is something we have objectively in common isnt it , yes riemanngalois(40): yes (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , we can both sense it, or indirectly sense it riemanngalois(40): we can both sense it, or indirectly sense it (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") ideogram(40): http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1072638.ece Mapleleaf(40): riem so the natural criticism for theists is that well, they are adding an extra assumption but getting the same empiricle result, right , what empirical result are theists getting? riemanngalois(40): what empirical result are theists getting? (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): the same data as the atheists , right riemanngalois(40): right (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): so the attack on theism is really a version of occams razor is what im saying , ok riemanngalois(40): ok (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'EEKarf) Mapleleaf(40): more assumptions to explain the same data ideogram(40): no the attack on theism is that theists are a bunch of #$%&#$%&s , its an attack on not using parsinomy of explanation? riemanngalois(40): its an attack on not using parsinomy of explanation? (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" timewsy(40): i pick donald timewsy(40): mis Mapleleaf(40): but this shows a lot of the kind of criticisms you and others in this channel were saying before i talked about this...was mis guided Mapleleaf(40): because the question was "whats the evidence" etc..well the empiricle data is the same --> gipp guess you failed that test , well my criticism is that if god existed, there would be a preponderance of evidence. we would expect it riemanngalois(40): well my criticism is that if god existed, there would be a preponderance of evidence. we would expect it (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , just as if i said, there is a stampede of elephants in my room. riemanngalois(40): just as if i said, there is a stampede of elephants in my room. (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): i did suggest christians and muslims will use witness accounts, but thats another type of argument ideogram(40): geez, how many times do I have to say this -- either prayers get answered or they don't , so youre saying that "god" is just an assumption riemanngalois(40): so youre saying that "god" is just an assumption (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , i thought believers believe there exists empirical evidence for god Mapleleaf(40): well ideo i said mine are, but how can i communicate the truth of that to you? riemanngalois(40): i thought believers believe there exists empirical evidence for god (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Introspection(40): Right then Mapleleaf(40): ideo to which i got no response ideogram(40): I told you, several times, establish a control where people don't pray for someone's recovery, vs one where they do ideogram(40): I even linked to it ideogram(40): you are really starting to piss me off Mapleleaf(40): ideo you are just confused about what religion really is --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'Uirapuru) ideogram(40): excuse me, I answered your question so now you are changing the subject? , maple, i dont think that christians believe god just "exists". like a deist god, and has nothing to do with reality. they believe that he has a long history of empirically observable miracles, riemanngalois(40): maple, i dont think that christians believe god just "exists". like a deist god, and has nothing to do with reality. they believe that he has a long history of empirically observable miracles, (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , so god is more than just an extra assumption, it comes with a lot of data riemanngalois(40): so god is more than just an extra assumption, it comes with a lot of data (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , alleged data riemanngalois(40): alleged data (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): ideo let me give you an example. suppose you pray for a sick child to recover, but the child dies. does that mean your prayer wasnt "asnwered"? ideogram(40): yes, most people would say that, do you disagree? Mapleleaf(40): you cant possibly answer no to that question or you are confused about religion is ideogram(40): people have crises of faith over unanswered prayers all the time ideogram(40): so tell your own theists that they are confused about religion Mapleleaf(40): well their crisis is based on the same confusion ideogram(40): oh, good, so people who believe in god are confused too, glad we could establish that , maple, the bible is alleging there exists data concerning the "extra assumption" (god), his various miracles and interactions with his creations. riemanngalois(40): maple, the bible is alleging there exists data concerning the "extra assumption" (god), his various miracles and interactions with his creations. (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): well ideo thats your assertion..but not what i said ;) ideogram(40): which part of my chain of reasoning do you dispute? --> SaintEmilion FYI 60 to 75% of the abusers here are rated under 1500 blitz , maple, if theists just believed god exists as an explanation to creation. thats one thing. but they insist he interacts with people, for which i see no evidence (or im expected to believe there is a conspiracy, god only appears to the most faithful) riemanngalois(40): maple, if theists just believed god exists as an explanation to creation. thats one thing. but they insist he interacts with people, for which i see no evidence (or im expected to believe there is a conspiracy, god only appears to the most faithful) (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): one sec..phone call ideogram(40): eh I have to go shower and get ready anyway --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'movealready) ideogram(40): it's not like the argument won't be here tomorrow --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'Sanhux) dbezz(37): what is everyone wearing and or doing? dbezz(37): lets... start... with... say... mekkis . well, these debates are futile anyway (told RxR, who has been idle 5 mins) dbezz(37): mekkis what are you wearing? RxR tells you: hehe mostly . i tried to answer him, but he just ignored me (told RxR) . god is not just an extra assumption, as if (told RxR) . christians go pretty far and insist there is a lot of data for god (told RxR) . i think this is the issue (told RxR) RxR tells you: to most of the christians in ch 40 its a big part of their life, they cant just sit back and accept there is a lack of evidence . yeah, i think he is just trying to change the subject (told RxR) RxR tells you: maple uses the same tactics all the time milouchess shouts: Hello everybody krell shouts: blik where were u on the night of the end of the world? ,god is not just an extra assumption. christians insist there is a lot of data for god. i treat it like the data for alien abductions (and the assumption that aliens have landed here and assisted us with technology) blik(C) shouts: You know, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help. riemanngalois(40): god is not just an extra assumption. christians insist there is a lot of data for god. i treat it like the data for alien abductions (and the assumption that aliens have landed here and assisted us with technology) (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") RxR tells you: you can see it in ch 39 too. He makes some meaningless claim filled with plenty of advanced words, then you try 30 mins to have him clarify it and when its clear for everyone he isnt interested the discussion is dead anyway and you have wasted 30 mins on nothing . yeah (told RxR) RxR tells you: its his way of trolling . well im not the only one then :) (told RxR) . i dont have a strong philosophical background, but even with what i know, it doesnt add up (told RxR) --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'uragano) --> Punkyyyy asks ficsans who their fav admin is! krell shouts: roboadmin , also many people claim they saw elvis appear after he died, riemanngalois(40): also many people claim they saw elvis appear after he died, (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") timewsy(40): and tupac , why do christians dismiss these sightings? riemanngalois(40): why do christians dismiss these sightings? (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , , yeah riemanngalois(40): , yeah (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") timewsy(37): im wearing a white king jumper with hood on **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" , christians laugh at the elvis sightings , but for some reason Jesus they are 100 percent sure he had sightings after his death riemanngalois(40): christians laugh at the elvis sightings , but for some reason Jesus they are 100 percent sure he had sightings after his death (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , that bothers me riemanngalois(40): that bothers me (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , this has nothing to do with philosophy actually. christians are extremely biased. b3 even told me he is not willing to look into any religion. i asked why, he says "why should i" riemanngalois(40): this has nothing to do with philosophy actually. christians are extremely biased. b3 even told me he is not willing to look into any religion. i asked why, he says "why should i" (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") donnadistruttiva shouts: ma gelfand e griscuc hanno giocato? com' finita? krell shouts: only english please , ill be back tomorrow to drop my atheist bombs riemanngalois(40): ill be back tomorrow to drop my atheist bombs (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") sucaba(40): Mapleleaf, I thnik there is a difference between theist's and atheist's view of the world; for the theist, empirically observed religious practices of people can have a relation to a real good, while the atheist will only have scientific (e.g. sociologist) explanation for religious pracitices donnadistruttiva shouts: griscuc an Gelfand played ? how is fiinished? krell shouts: blik what is your mobile number? blik(C) shouts: The number one cause of computer problems is computer solutions. , i repeat, christians laugh at the testimony of people who witnessed Elvis after he died. but they are 100 % sure that Jesus was sighted after his death riemanngalois(40): i repeat, christians laugh at the testimony of people who witnessed Elvis after he died. but they are 100 % sure that Jesus was sighted after his death (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") RxR(40): thats probably true --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'dockson) RxR(40): really christians agree there is a clear lack of objective proof for their faith, but its still ingrained in them for some reason --> Punkyyyy notes that blik isnt interested in krell , rxr, im irritated that christians dont take alien abductions seriously, or elvis sightings riemanngalois(40): rxr, im irritated that christians dont take alien abductions seriously, or elvis sightings (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dockson shouts: I have noted that Punkyyyy is not at all inreresting krell shouts: today is the first day of the rest of your life! , the alien abductions of today is going to be the start of another established religion in 1000 years from now riemanngalois(40): the alien abductions of today is going to be the start of another established religion in 1000 years from now (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") RxR(40): true, that is what sucaba just tried to explain dockson shouts: krell - the same crap again today ! :(( RxR(40): (why christians believe the bible but not ufos or elvis lives) , why not? the ingredients of christianity are , "eyewitnesses" and faith. well , then i see new religions popping up based on alien abductions, and even possibly elvis sightings riemanngalois(40): why not? the ingredients of christianity are , "eyewitnesses" and faith. well , then i see new religions popping up based on alien abductions, and even possibly elvis sightings (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , by the way, ancient alien believers are gaining headway. there are more and more of them riemanngalois(40): by the way, ancient alien believers are gaining headway. there are more and more of them (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): i am one too. , it may possibly one day eclipse traditional monotheistic religions riemanngalois(40): it may possibly one day eclipse traditional monotheistic religions (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Wapid ) Hashisheen(40): last year i went to a country where all people thought i was an alien. , it also appeals to technological modern day people, as opposed to sheep herders (bible) riemanngalois(40): it also appeals to technological modern day people, as opposed to sheep herders (bible) (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , rxr, let me scroll up riemanngalois(40): rxr, let me scroll up (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , religion appeals to narcissists , not by coincidence riemanngalois(40): religion appeals to narcissists , not by coincidence (told 29 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): religion is important. --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'Mekk) sadurang(40): Good Day all! Hashisheen(40): good evening sadu. --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'munnu) lockidagenius(40): to argue is to commence on the erroneous premise that the opinion of another person matteerss to you...if u ignore them will it still matter/ , i understand religion is important to people. but you can be happy without religion riemanngalois(40): i understand religion is important to people. but you can be happy without religion (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'Wicked) , you just do whatever you were doing before... riemanngalois(40): you just do whatever you were doing before... (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") lockidagenius(40): If happiness is a staate of mind then u dont need religion to be happy , without that extra assumption riemanngalois(40): without that extra assumption (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , right riemanngalois(40): right (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , people erroneously associate happiness with god. or give god credit. thus they fear if they question god, their happiness can be taken away riemanngalois(40): people erroneously associate happiness with god. or give god credit. thus they fear if they question god, their happiness can be taken away (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'blkmagic) , they are related only by fear it would seem riemanngalois(40): they are related only by fear it would seem (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , or ignorance riemanngalois(40): or ignorance (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): where was i , the alien abductions of today is going to be the start of another established religion in 1000 years from now riemanngalois(40): the alien abductions of today is going to be the start of another established religion in 1000 years from now (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem, how do you know its an error , because people are happy without god riemanngalois(40): because people are happy without god (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem you doll out what errors people are making with little argument to back it up **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" , if god caused happiness, then all atheists would be depressed riemanngalois(40): if god caused happiness, then all atheists would be depressed (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): again riem, see my above point teofilonestor shouts: time , maple, do you know that ancient alien believers are gaining headway riemanngalois(40): maple, do you know that ancient alien believers are gaining headway (told 29 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): if atheists and theists are having the same experiene, you need to spell out exactly what the ramifcations and problems are for both sides lockidagenius(40): i lost the feear of god when i gave up the expectation of heaven and the fear of hell , maple, i dont scroll up. if you have something to say, press your up key riemanngalois(40): maple, i dont scroll up. if you have something to say, press your up key (told 29 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): well remove lock and genius from your handle Mapleleaf(40): riem, im just noting i addressed much of what you are saying already , if you dont want to repeat, you can press up riemanngalois(40): if you dont want to repeat, you can press up (told 29 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , i mean, type again riemanngalois(40): i mean, type again (told 29 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): ok riem, im just notting you are making points i addressed , one sec riemanngalois(40): one sec (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , maple, the bible is alleging there exists data concerning the "extra assumption" (god), his various miracles and interactions with his creations. riemanngalois(40): maple, the bible is alleging there exists data concerning the "extra assumption" (god), his various miracles and interactions with his creations. (told 29 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , maple, why do christians dismiss the evidence for elvis being still alive? they laugh at it riemanngalois(40): maple, why do christians dismiss the evidence for elvis being still alive? they laugh at it (told 29 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): arent elvis fans mostly christian? im not sure i accept that assumption as worded --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'Spyro) roochie shouts: who/what has beaten Kromer in standard? , some christians on fics said very matter of factedly, the ancient aliens are false, and no abductions have occured. they didnt even bother looking into the testimony riemanngalois(40): some christians on fics said very matter of factedly, the ancient aliens are false, and no abductions have occured. they didnt even bother looking into the testimony (told 28 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , the testimony for abductions riemanngalois(40): the testimony for abductions (told 28 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'Cahta) --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'hahahehe) Pellwurm shouts: tell Pellwurm Thanks for using BabasChess 4.0 (build 12274), this is a custom logon script (you can change it from the Preferences) , so basically. if you make an extraordinary claim, you expect in a proportionate manner extraordinary evidence. the evidence for alien abductions is not extraordinary riemanngalois(40): so basically. if you make an extraordinary claim, you expect in a proportionate manner extraordinary evidence. the evidence for alien abductions is not extraordinary (told 29 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , the claim that there was a moon landing in 1960s is extraordinary. but we have a HUGE amount of evidence, riemanngalois(40): the claim that there was a moon landing in 1960s is extraordinary. but we have a HUGE amount of evidence, (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , a great preponderance of evidence riemanngalois(40): a great preponderance of evidence (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , first off, millions of viewers. NASA, the astronauts. it is possible it was staged, sure. but it requires a very elaborate conspiracy, and there is no evidence of such a great elaborate conspiracy riemanngalois(40): first off, millions of viewers. NASA, the astronauts. it is possible it was staged, sure. but it requires a very elaborate conspiracy, and there is no evidence of such a great elaborate conspiracy (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): i dont know if there are aliens or not. but any comments about religion based on what you heard a christaian say about alens..is a straw man fallacy as i noted above , the jesus sightings? im not really impressed. people have a hard time believing Elvis really died. riemanngalois(40): the jesus sightings? im not really impressed. people have a hard time believing Elvis really died. (told 29 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): so use the best christian arguments as reference, not the worst...or your position falls to the straw man , i wasnt really making an argument. i was pointing out hypocricy riemanngalois(40): i wasnt really making an argument. i was pointing out hypocricy (told 29 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): you are allowed to have a little fun...just at some point come back to a main thread on an actual religious problem , also as far as your argument goes, theists believe that god left much empirical evidence riemanngalois(40): also as far as your argument goes, theists believe that god left much empirical evidence (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , but you keep avoiding this , not sure why riemanngalois(40): but you keep avoiding this , not sure why (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , theists are not as philosophical as you seem to paint them. they believe god left empirical evidence, and lots of it riemanngalois(40): theists are not as philosophical as you seem to paint them. they believe god left empirical evidence, and lots of it (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): how is that my argument? , you said theists have the same empiricism as atheists. this is false riemanngalois(40): you said theists have the same empiricism as atheists. this is false (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , atheists dont believe in the bible as empirical data riemanngalois(40): atheists dont believe in the bible as empirical data (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): ok we can disagree on that..but disagreement doesnt make it false...its a difference of opinion , so the bible is not empirical data? riemanngalois(40): so the bible is not empirical data? (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): my guess is once we spell out exactly what we mean by empiricism, the difference would be explained , or alleged empirical data riemanngalois(40): or alleged empirical data (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): i suggested its witness accounts, but thats not empiricle data , ok riemanngalois(40): ok (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): witness accounts of the resurection for example , and by empiricism, you mean, as a way of gaining knowledge riemanngalois(40): and by empiricism, you mean, as a way of gaining knowledge (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): i saw a guy die..but then i saw him a day or two later....thats what i mean by a witness acount lockidagenius(40): Maple after removing the L and G thing from my handle we have satan left if u use inverse anagrams , maple, ok . then why do christians dismiss the Elvis sightings? and alien abductions riemanngalois(40): maple, ok . then why do christians dismiss the Elvis sightings? and alien abductions (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , maple, and the eyewitnesses are alive today riemanngalois(40): maple, and the eyewitnesses are alive today (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): lock thats funny , maple, i even have a few UFO books in my house, one sec riemanngalois(40): maple, i even have a few UFO books in my house, one sec (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): wel riem you have to think about what they are witnessing...and that explains why its not an empiricle argument Mapleleaf(40): revealation is not empriicism..its a different kind of experience , maple, my point i think is, it isnt reasonable to take extraordinary eyewitness accounts seriously . one would expect extraordinary evidence (such as with the moon landing) riemanngalois(40): maple, my point i think is, it isnt reasonable to take extraordinary eyewitness accounts seriously . one would expect extraordinary evidence (such as with the moon landing) (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") roochie shouts: happy day of the rapture ++ Mapleleaf(40): to me it depends on the situation and what extraordinary means , the moon landing at the time is an unusual claim. but it was backed by a preponderance of evidence riemanngalois(40): the moon landing at the time is an unusual claim. but it was backed by a preponderance of evidence (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): i dont see why thats even relavent , relative to the time. well its still unusual to turn water into wine, etc riemanngalois(40): relative to the time. well its still unusual to turn water into wine, etc (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , because it isnt reasonable to take it seriously, just as christians hypocritically dismiss alien abductions and elvis sightings riemanngalois(40): because it isnt reasonable to take it seriously, just as christians hypocritically dismiss alien abductions and elvis sightings (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): wel not the ones that believe it , or, i should say, apply a double standard riemanngalois(40): or, i should say, apply a double standard (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): so thats claim is just false --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'nano) , come again? riemanngalois(40): come again? (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") FriarBlues shouts: is not a real friar but he plays one on t.v. Mapleleaf(40): *so that claim is just false...since the ones who blieve elvis is alive believe hes alive , maple, i have asked many christians, such as b3, they dont believe in elvis sightings or alien abductions riemanngalois(40): maple, i have asked many christians, such as b3, they dont believe in elvis sightings or alien abductions (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , jaron graffe, riemanngalois(40): jaron graffe, (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): just trivially false isnt it? the people who blieveve elvis is alive are probably christisan , well im talking about those christians who dont believe in alien abductions ( mainstream christianity ) riemanngalois(40): well im talking about those christians who dont believe in alien abductions ( mainstream christianity ) (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , maple, whoa, how do you know that riemanngalois(40): maple, whoa, how do you know that (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): you only seem to know the straw man fallacy for establishing your position riem , maple, mainstream christianity does not take alien abductions seriously riemanngalois(40): maple, mainstream christianity does not take alien abductions seriously (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , maple, would you liek me to get statistics? riemanngalois(40): maple, would you liek me to get statistics? (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , like* riemanngalois(40): like* (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): why take one ch 39ers comment and apply it to all christians? thats a straw man. , it isnt straw man, im talking about mainstream christianity riemanngalois(40): it isnt straw man, im talking about mainstream christianity (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , mainstream, as in majority riemanngalois(40): mainstream, as in majority (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): you are so used to a low benchmark in this channel riem. i dont think you are actually that stupid...just out of practice , maple, of course there are more ways to gain information. i watch news , read articles riemanngalois(40): maple, of course there are more ways to gain information. i watch news , read articles (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , maple, right, it would be a skewed sample riemanngalois(40): maple, right, it would be a skewed sample (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): riem is learning, maple , there are various ways of ascertaining mainstream christianity riemanngalois(40): there are various ways of ascertaining mainstream christianity (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> FriarBlues Good morning Blik. blik(C) shouts: It's hard to co-exist with things that want to kill you. plk(40): but clearly there's a logic fallacy, riem , one could do a random sample (difficult), riemanngalois(40): one could do a random sample (difficult), (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") checkcheckmate shouts: how is that hard? , plk, what is? riemanngalois(40): plk, what is? (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") GrandLapin(99): hey gmonu plk(40): in your reasoning , what? riemanngalois(40): what? (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" plk(40): also, your use of the word 'hypocritical' is a loaded word that doesn't belong. , im not a mind reader riemanngalois(40): im not a mind reader (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'nicolaus) , maple, so next time i see jaron graffe, ill be sure to ask him why he applies a double standard riemanngalois(40): maple, so next time i see jaron graffe, ill be sure to ask him why he applies a double standard (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , ive asked b3 many times riemanngalois(40): ive asked b3 many times (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , maple, do you dismiss the alien abduction testimony? and Elvis sightings? riemanngalois(40): maple, do you dismiss the alien abduction testimony? and Elvis sightings? (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): do you, riemann? Mapleleaf(40): riem outside of religion, you have an interest in philosophy, cosomology, philosopy of science right , plk, do i what? do i eat ice cream, sometimes riemanngalois(40): plk, do i what? do i eat ice cream, sometimes (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem i dont know if there are aliens or not plk(40): what percentage of atheists do you think believe the witness accounts? Mapleleaf(40): carl sagan thought aliens were likely , witness of what? aliens>? jesus? riemanngalois(40): witness of what? aliens>? jesus? (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): haha. , maple, but thats different than saying aliens landed here and abducted people riemanngalois(40): maple, but thats different than saying aliens landed here and abducted people (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Tetoris is back. , you know, roswell riemanngalois(40): you know, roswell (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): I'll have to take back my opinion that I thought you were learning :) --> mekkis drinks too much plk(40): but carry on. , plk, i dont care what you think riemanngalois(40): plk, i dont care what you think (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") roochie shouts: how much is too much mek? Mapleleaf(40): riem have you ever seen carl sagans comments on aliens..he thought a certain number of them must be intelligent and highly advanced Mapleleaf(40): i dont know if that means they visisted earth or not , maple, youre changing the subject. but thats fine riemanngalois(40): maple, youre changing the subject. but thats fine (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , im talking about specifically alien abductions riemanngalois(40): im talking about specifically alien abductions (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> mekkis well mind your p & q.. an pint hard liquor or a quart of beer considered too much , roswell riemanngalois(40): roswell (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): no not really riem. you are the one trying to make up some #$%&#$%& argument against christians that makes no sense, and is a straw man , maple, it makes sense to everyone but you riemanngalois(40): maple, it makes sense to everyone but you (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem do you agree there are some chrisitans who dont accept aliens? plk(40): no riem. --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'chefj) , and plk, but he is allergic to typing riemanngalois(40): and plk, but he is allergic to typing (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Tetoris shouts: lol. How much is too much. plk(40): and you to reading :) , maple, plk cant type more than three words at time. have mercy on him riemanngalois(40): maple, plk cant type more than three words at time. have mercy on him (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): map: how do you define an "alien" ? Mapleleaf(40): riem some christians believe there are aliens and some dont. dont you think you need to attack what is common to both positions if the attack is going to be truly relavent to their religion? , maple, this really isnt that complicated, riemanngalois(40): maple, this really isnt that complicated, (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): if an alien is a life form that is not a earth based life form, then all christians believe in aliens. Mapleleaf(40): again, if some christians believe in aliens and some dont...doesnt the atheist need to attack what is common to both groups? thats why riem is engaging in a straw man fallacy , maple, ok ill make it simpler. people witnessed Elvis after he died. this is a fact. riemanngalois(40): maple, ok ill make it simpler. people witnessed Elvis after he died. this is a fact. (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Portucalia shouts: resume~ Portucalia shouts: resume --> Punkyyyy is seeking a game or three Hashisheen(40): all christians believe in angels. and angels fit perfectly under definition of aliens. --> mekkis also listening king crimson.. some crazy guy Portucalia shouts: resume , christians dismiss the sightings of elvis, but dont dismiss the sightings of jesus after he died riemanngalois(40): christians dismiss the sightings of elvis, but dont dismiss the sightings of jesus after he died (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem thats just false , this a pretty clear double standard , of bias riemanngalois(40): this a pretty clear double standard , of bias (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): as ive explained many times to you..that is just false , maple, yes b3 and jaron graffe for starters plk(40): riem, your logic makes no sense. riemanngalois(40): maple, yes b3 and jaron graffe for starters (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , plk, it makes sense to rxr riemanngalois(40): plk, it makes sense to rxr (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , and others . go and ask him riemanngalois(40): and others . go and ask him (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): does it make sense to you though? Mapleleaf(40): hash teach us about islam,...because im learning nothing about atheism today from riem plk(40): can you even write down to yourself what you are saying? plk(40): in the form of a logical argument , its a double standard riemanngalois(40): its a double standard (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): the best I can think of is that this is really about the value of witness accounts. plk(40): but our whole legal system is based on it plk(40): it certainly is not specific to christians , right, but i doubt they would execute someone for killing Elvis after he "rose from the dead" riemanngalois(40): right, but i doubt they would execute someone for killing Elvis after he "rose from the dead" (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): map: islam is simple. all humans are equal. only those are better who are more pious and good to other humans. plk(40): but how is that relevant? Hashisheen(40): the most sacred thing is human life. even the most sacred rules can be ignored to save a human life. , plk, ask rxr riemanngalois(40): plk, ask rxr (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): hash, is that in the Quoran plk(40): rxr's logic sucked too, yesterday :) Hashisheen(40): yes. , ill wait for someone to translate my argument to you two very logical people riemanngalois(40): ill wait for someone to translate my argument to you two very logical people (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): hash i mean it states it as a basic principle? plk(40): besides, your other part of the argument is a fallacy of generalization Hashisheen(40): yes. but in different places. plk(40): which I'm sure you are aware of. Or were. , plk, well i had no difficulty explaining it to rxr. he got it the first time riemanngalois(40): plk, well i had no difficulty explaining it to rxr. he got it the first time (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): i am telling you about basic rules of business. the faith has some different tenants. Tetoris shouts: You must type resume 1st without shout, Portucalia. plk(40): so, riem? , plk, and the rest of the chatters riemanngalois(40): plk, and the rest of the chatters (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> botchvinik hi Tets Mapleleaf(40): hash where does God fit into islam? plk(40): fallacy of authority? :) --> callipygian(C) seeks a game or three --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'callipygian) Tetoris shouts: Botch. , i dont know where double standard falls in logic. if thats logic riemanngalois(40): i dont know where double standard falls in logic. if thats logic (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Pellwurm shouts: tell Pellwurm Thanks for using BabasChess 4.0 (build 12274), this is a custom logon script (you can change it from the Preferences) Hashisheen(40): creator. same as jewish god. but not that strict or blood thirsty one. plk(40): I don't quite know what you are trying to claim with that, also. Tetoris shouts: How u keeping? , my point was that christians dont give the same credence to elvis sightings as 2000 year old sighting of a jew who died riemanngalois(40): my point was that christians dont give the same credence to elvis sightings as 2000 year old sighting of a jew who died (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> botchvinik like open mayo , this is pretty clear to me riemanngalois(40): this is pretty clear to me (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): neither do most other people , plk, then youre being obtuse riemanngalois(40): plk, then youre being obtuse (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> botchvinik :) :( ;) :D ;;) :-/ :O X-( :p >:) I-) 8-| :-& B-) :> :(( :-\$ :-s :)) :-| :o) O:) 8-} =P~ :-? :-B #-o =; =D> :-L ~o) :)>- |_|D ==~ :@) ~:> :^o 3:-O :(|) ||*( >@_/ \_@< !BCS->(donkey) plk(40): neither should they Mapleleaf(40): hash, if our world is a computer simulation would God be the programmer? or is it more than that...a guranteur of moral rules etc **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2 and the Moscow Championships - Round 1. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" plk(40): neither did you document your case Tetoris shouts: Mayo as in mayonaise? , i bet its clear to 99 percent of the people , who are english speaking (native) riemanngalois(40): i bet its clear to 99 percent of the people , who are english speaking (native) (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): jewish god just kicks retriceover any other god plk(40): neither did you make the right deductions Hashisheen(40): god is creator that has created people who have free will. , plk, then ill let someone else argue it. riemanngalois(40): plk, then ill let someone else argue it. (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> botchvinik sore as heck from ride to the Lakefront yesterday Mapleleaf(40): hash i guess what im wondering is if in islam moral law is part of natural law skiffle shouts: mayonaise as in Patty Maynoaise , i had no problem communicating this , until you two riemanngalois(40): i had no problem communicating this , until you two (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): so its like autonomous life. he's sent it in the test tube, and will check its results on the judgement day. Hashisheen(40): what is natural law, map? , if you scroll up that is riemanngalois(40): if you scroll up that is (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'JohnAs) Mapleleaf(40): ok hash thats interesting --> mekkis mama dont allow skiffle playin round here Mapleleaf(40): hash like part of the physical universe --> davemanUK i ate too much mayo today --> munnu k , maple, why dont you take elvis sightings seriously? riemanngalois(40): maple, why dont you take elvis sightings seriously? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): hash but you are saying its more like a test , haha, you lost riemanngalois(40): haha, you lost (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): heh. i am telling you my view :-) Grovel shouts: check out these groovy old pics http://motherjones.com/media/2011/04/vivian-maier-john-maloof , plk, see my point riemanngalois(40): plk, see my point (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> mekkis dukes mayonaise is best.. and only mr mustard , maple uses a double standard riemanngalois(40): maple uses a double standard (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): so, riem, do you :) , he dismisses the views of alien abductions and Elvis sightings like a typical christian riemanngalois(40): he dismisses the views of alien abductions and Elvis sightings like a typical christian (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): hash would you say any islam scholars say something similar Hashisheen(40): life is created. given free will. and the data of deeds will be checked in the judgement day. , plk, why? riemanngalois(40): plk, why? (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): theologians never use test tubes. , plk, ok , youre right that i shouldnt generalize. i can say, i find many instances of christians using a double standard riemanngalois(40): plk, ok , youre right that i shouldnt generalize. i can say, i find many instances of christians using a double standard (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): hash that seems a lot like my own way of seeing christianity , plk, is that ok? riemanngalois(40): plk, is that ok? (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): that would be better, but still lacking Hashisheen(40): there is a major difference in christianity from islam and judaism. plk(40): because (1) you didn't look at non-christians, and (2) you didn't look for examples of the opposite --> JohnAs bows to the Queen. , if you scroll up, i said earlier that christians who do it, i find irritating . riemanngalois(40): if you scroll up, i said earlier that christians who do it, i find irritating . (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): judaism+islam are social code plus god-code. christianity is just god-code. Mapleleaf(40): hash, if things are set in motion, and you are in essense being tested...there wouldnt be a lot of intervention into the test (by the creator) would there , plk, but we are discussing theism here riemanngalois(40): plk, but we are discussing theism here (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , plk, ok , then i detract the generalization riemanngalois(40): plk, ok , then i detract the generalization (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Grovel has no time for you. On my way to better game. mekkis(40): all religion making me puke Hashisheen(40): there aren't miracles in quran - other than those from the OT tradition. plk(40): perhaps that is the context, riem. but you are making a specific claim and make certain deductions based on that claim, both of which are seriously lacking. , plk, how is non christians relevant. im talking about atheism vs theism , looking at unusual claims riemanngalois(40): plk, how is non christians relevant. im talking about atheism vs theism , looking at unusual claims (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): plus there are some in which the dead are raised. thats it. mekkis(40): barf --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'knighttour) , plk, then i will restate my claim, one sec riemanngalois(40): plk, then i will restate my claim, one sec (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): in traditional islam muhammad is not going around performing miracles. plk(40): do you read what you write, riem? :) Mapleleaf(40): hash have there been examples of miricles anywhere in islamic history? plk(40): you are doing atheism vs theism and you don't think atheists are relevant? Hashisheen(40): loooooooots of it. all sufis keep on doing miracles. mekkis(40): jesus.. puke.. muhammed barf.. moses .. hurling chunks , claim: i find many instances of christians using a double standard. on the one hand they dismiss Elvis sightings, but the are 100 % confident that Jesus was sighted after dying riemanngalois(40): claim: i find many instances of christians using a double standard. on the one hand they dismiss Elvis sightings, but the are 100 % confident that Jesus was sighted after dying (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): but, thats not part of main teaching. , plk, give me a sec riemanngalois(40): plk, give me a sec (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): hash ok...but its not a necessary component as far as the tenets of islam are concerned? , plk, ok thats my claim. now whats your question exactly riemanngalois(40): plk, ok thats my claim. now whats your question exactly (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): yes. not a necessary component. plk(40): scroll up :) , do atheists use a double standard, i dont know, this is specifically a claim about christians riemanngalois(40): do atheists use a double standard, i dont know, this is specifically a claim about christians (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , plk, im making a claim about christians, thats the claim. riemanngalois(40): plk, im making a claim about christians, thats the claim. (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): what would it mean if MORE atheists than christians believed in elvis sightings? , whats the logical problem now? riemanngalois(40): whats the logical problem now? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): the miracles of muhammad are these: he's a model human being, and quran. arabs were crazy about linguistics and poetry. and quran had a very high standard on these two things. --> davemanUK everybody should eat a tablespoon of mayo right now , plk, you know thats not true riemanngalois(40): plk, you know thats not true (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): you don't think it is relevant? , plk, no because thats not the case riemanngalois(40): plk, no because thats not the case (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): later traditions add some miracles, though. like splitting of moon. Gluipert shouts: Plus castor oil. plk(40): you state it is not the case Hashisheen(40): and today's tradition adds many more miracles. Mapleleaf(40): hash maybe mohammed won against great odds mekkis(40): muhamed was first a politician.. second a soldier.. who u kidding hash , and the claim is specifically about christians riemanngalois(40): and the claim is specifically about christians (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): aha. Gluipert shouts: Is Quaker State still considered edible oil? , plk, i think its well known that atheists are more skeptical riemanngalois(40): plk, i think its well known that atheists are more skeptical (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): no. it's about a few people you asked, really. , plk, no , more than that riemanngalois(40): plk, no , more than that (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): "it is well known" Hashisheen(40): mekkis: muhammad was a religious leader, social leader, a law giver and a general. --> Grovel trying the new Beer & Pizza diet. (> |_|D Mapleleaf(40): hash sometimes something unlikely has a miricle quality to it, even if its not a miricle , plk, well, thats why i dont like to make claims about atheists, riemanngalois(40): plk, well, thats why i dont like to make claims about atheists, (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> JohnAs likes Grovel's ingenuity. , youre trying to force me to make a claim about atheism, and i wont riemanngalois(40): youre trying to force me to make a claim about atheism, and i wont (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): muhamed was deke.. simular to jesus and moses Mapleleaf(40): hash how is moses seen in the islamic tradition? plk(40): riem, you ought to review your fallacies :) Gluipert shouts: How do you do that without it being a shout? Hashisheen(40): one of the great prophets. , plk, no , i only made one claim about christians riemanngalois(40): plk, no , i only made one claim about christians (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , you keep bringing up atheists, thats your problem riemanngalois(40): you keep bringing up atheists, thats your problem (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): no, your claim about christians will only have value if you can compare it with the general population --> davemanUK please dont eat while shouting --> sucaba "it" checkcheckmate shouts: how do i start a game with someone i know, how do i proppose a match to a certain user Hashisheen(40): great prophet list is something like this: adam, noah, abraham, joseph, moses, jesus. --> JohnAs considers pizza and beer to be a magnificent combination for optimal health benefits :)) --> JohnAs roflz Hashisheen(40): but unlike judaism, david and soloman are also prophets. prophets of 1st order. Grovel shouts: match friends time inc u or r --> JohnAs really does love pizza and beer (but pizza more, cuz Grovel is the one that lieks the beer moar). mekkis(40): greatest dekes of alltime.. okok jesus muhamed.. ponzi schemem guy , plk, well . if atheists used a double standard, that wouldnt make the christians right riemanngalois(40): plk, well . if atheists used a double standard, that wouldnt make the christians right (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): book of david is one of the sacred scriptures in islam. Mapleleaf(40): david is a prophet in islam? plk(40): and your claim about christians is based on a sample the size of 3? --> JohnAs idk , plk, no more riemanngalois(40): plk, no more (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Hashisheen(40): yes. prophets with a book. thats a biggie. --> Grovel could work out a plan with JohnAs , i can attest to 30 conversations about aliens with christians, riemanngalois(40): i can attest to 30 conversations about aliens with christians, (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): david who beat goliath? , but i only said instances, did i not? riemanngalois(40): but i only said instances, did i not? (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): david slew a dragon Hashisheen(40): yes. plk(40): you said, but you make deductions about christians in general , plk, but as far as that having value if i compare to general population... well, riemanngalois(40): plk, but as far as that having value if i compare to general population... well, (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , plk, no i made no deduction. i said it irritates me is all riemanngalois(40): plk, no i made no deduction. i said it irritates me is all (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): dragons, giants.. elves dwarves.. all this is in apocrypha plk(40): ah. --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'PCM) Hashisheen(40): islam has these holy books. torah, zabur (book of david), injil (NT), quran. --> Grovel thinks there might be a Beer Diet in existance [If not I can start one] mekkis(40): religion is to make me puke , plk, i was being apologetic of atheism, i said i treat jesus sightings like elvis sightings (consistency) riemanngalois(40): plk, i was being apologetic of atheism, i said i treat jesus sightings like elvis sightings (consistency) (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> JohnAs writes to every beer company imaginable to get promotional offers 4 Grovel :))))))))) plk(40): well, that is something I can neither confirm nor deny :) --> FriarBlues "If you're still alive, You haven't had too much." --> JohnAs except anheiser-busch co. plk(40): (your irritation, that is) mekkis(40): methinks elvis was gay , i found instances of inconsistency in christians , as i explained above riemanngalois(40): i found instances of inconsistency in christians , as i explained above (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): if you think about it, christians dont really believe elvis is dead ;) , well lets not generalize , as plk pointed out riemanngalois(40): well lets not generalize , as plk pointed out (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): yes riem. But have you looked for instances of consistency in christians? --> Grovel never has too much but is trying to correct that |_|D --> JohnAs thinks of good ol' disgusting Budweiser.... *mmmmmmmm* :-& , but this is the fundamental core of their faith, it is the basis of the whole thing riemanngalois(40): but this is the fundamental core of their faith, it is the basis of the whole thing (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): besides, instances of inconsistency doesn't generalize properly to 'double standard' mekkis(40): christians are consistenltly stupid.. except for otb and b3 as example , if their whole faith rests on an inconsistent criterion, that would be troubling riemanngalois(40): if their whole faith rests on an inconsistent criterion, that would be troubling (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> JohnAs then thinks of a refreshingly clean Samuel Adams or perhaps a... Molson. --> Grovel accepts all beer offers no matter how terrible. --> JohnAs ...a molson golden. TjeerdJOuwehand shouts: Is there any way to get different pieces for the board? , they apply a double standard, riemanngalois(40): they apply a double standard, (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , specific christians riemanngalois(40): specific christians (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): you define something as inconsistency, also, that not everyone would agree with. Grovel shouts: Sammy is very flavourful , ok, what is the difference between Elvis sightings and Jesus sightings after being buried riemanngalois(40): ok, what is the difference between Elvis sightings and Jesus sightings after being buried (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> JohnAs would buy Grovel a beer, but times are tight :\ just spent my savings on fixing my car and bribing local authorities... plk(40): let's just say your whole argument needs work. But it's possible to get rid of the irritation in the mean time, if you want :) --> FriarBlues could drink every beer on earth except anheiser-busch. Half a glass gave him a headache. Too many chemicals. Mapleleaf(40): riem im glad you are now noting its specific christians now...thats an improvement mekkis(40): one difference.. okok elvis = avowed son of god Grovel shouts: Bribing them? I hope it was something fun! , plk, im ok now . the irritation has passed riemanngalois(40): plk, im ok now . the irritation has passed (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") jeisonmartinez(99): hola jeisonmartinez(99): hi to all plk(40): good :) SPogorecki(99): hi Mapleleaf(40): im looking up a basic summary of islam on youtube GrandLapin(99): hi jeison , maple, well , there are christians who believe in alien abductions . riemanngalois(40): maple, well , there are christians who believe in alien abductions . (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") jeisonmartinez(99): how are you ? , ie, more consistent christians riemanngalois(40): ie, more consistent christians (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): sure riem. how is that relavent --> JohnAs wonders why people even buy budweiser and coors and ... michelob... and a few others , i am discussing the weight of the testimony of jesus sightings riemanngalois(40): i am discussing the weight of the testimony of jesus sightings (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): there are atheists who believe in aliens. so what , the strength of the testimony riemanngalois(40): the strength of the testimony (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'Michuk) --> mekkis can drink a beer FriarBlues(40): There are aliens who believe in christian abductions. Mapleleaf(40): well riem straw man. nuff said Mapleleaf(40): learn logic --> BabasChess(TD) Babas-Salutes Kovrad =; , i compared Jesus to Elvis sightings, whats wrong with that riemanngalois(40): i compared Jesus to Elvis sightings, whats wrong with that (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Grovel thinks people should buy Heineken and be done with it! |_|D --> mekkis 53 redneck white shirt.. + blue ribbon beer Mapleleaf(40): well jesus sightings? like in the mashed potatoes? , it is relevant. we have instances of fans believing their leader didnt die riemanngalois(40): it is relevant. we have instances of fans believing their leader didnt die (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , no , real Elvis riemanngalois(40): no , real Elvis (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> TheBartender buys a round of hops for the house. Mapleleaf(40): but what does this have to do with basic beliefs and the problems with it Mapleleaf(40): and empiricism and all that jeisonmartinez(99): how's the match of molten vs egzot ? mekkis(40): in WWI.. many thousands troops saw a cross in the sky neosmatrix shouts: Germaan beer rules , maple, that was your topic. not mine riemanngalois(40): maple, that was your topic. not mine (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Grovel barley hops after 18 |_|D's JohnAs shouts: Budweiser is real in Germany, I hear. , maple, i moved on riemanngalois(40): maple, i moved on (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") GrandLapin(99): molten leads 2-0 Mapleleaf(40): you have some group atheists and non atheists with a set of empricile data (commonly accepted data to both groups) --> SaintEmilion I have a few friends in Greenbay who enjoy making their own beer been doing it for years Mapleleaf(40): we just never get beyon this basic starting point JohnAs shouts: like real without the formaldehyde etc. neosmatrix shouts: the original Budweiser is Chech , well the Elvis sightings is the claim that Elvis did not die (or rose from the dead) and is alive today. how is the testimony of this any different than Jesus sightings after he died riemanngalois(40): well the Elvis sightings is the claim that Elvis did not die (or rose from the dead) and is alive today. how is the testimony of this any different than Jesus sightings after he died (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") pueblo shouts: from Pilsner jeisonmartinez(99): ok , why do you as a christian not take seriously the Elvis sightings? riemanngalois(40): why do you as a christian not take seriously the Elvis sightings? (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> JohnAs remembers his father being busted by a cop who set him up 4 "bootlegging" beer 2 a guy that refused to accept the beer for free and instead got my father to sell him a 6-pack, wore a wire, iwas 6 years old and told to go out and play for a while neosmatrix shouts: I found a great drinking beer that goes well with anything Kinigsbacher mekkis(40): elvis is acknowledged son of god.. ok Mapleleaf(40): i think this is more like st anselms golden moutain argument maybe , maybe Elvis is the son of god riemanngalois(40): maybe Elvis is the son of god (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , mekkis, you beat me to it riemanngalois(40): mekkis, you beat me to it (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") neosmatrix shouts: konigsbacher **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2 and the Moscow Championships - Round 1. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" , maple, why do you as a christian not take seriously the allegations of alien abductions, sexual experimentation, chips implanted in their bodies, etc riemanngalois(40): maple, why do you as a christian not take seriously the allegations of alien abductions, sexual experimentation, chips implanted in their bodies, etc (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> JohnAs recalls hiss father telling son that the cop was jealous of my dad for having a pretty wife (my mom) lol. my dad is funny mekkis(40): we need new religion.. elvis religion , mekkis, the new religion is ancient aliens riemanngalois(40): mekkis, the new religion is ancient aliens (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): the fact of the matter is you cant refute religion of any kind...becauze theyve got magic and everything else at their disposal to explain everything. how can you possibly win that battle? Grovel shouts: Einbecker is good german beer so is Franziskaner,Hacker Pschorr,Koenig,Reissdorf and Weihenstephaner. , maple, i just showed you use a double standard, you lost riemanngalois(40): maple, i just showed you use a double standard, you lost (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> SaintEmilion I lived in Milwaukee for a few years and found out from frined who worked in the breweries that the don't age beer any longer. I asked a friend how long do they age the beer and he laughed and said as long as it takes to empty the tank right after they make it Mapleleaf(40): i mean thats the criticism and its defense at the same time JohnAs shouts: truth is, the guy that helped the cops actually told on my father in order to reduce jail-time or somethin , im talking about the double standard riemanngalois(40): im talking about the double standard (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> JohnAs imagines. --> botchvinik thinks Grovel likes Olympia mekkis(40): wow i agree w/maple leaf Mapleleaf(40): riem, i never accepted your premis that christians disregard elvis sightings.. Mapleleaf(40): at least 3 times , maple, why do *you* riemanngalois(40): maple, why do *you* (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Grovel shouts: not Pschoor I ever had that botch |_|D , maple, i detracted that claim riemanngalois(40): maple, i detracted that claim (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , retracted* riemanngalois(40): retracted* (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> biencastrojr thanks mekkis(40): someone shoot me please --> JohnAs you're welcome. --> botchvinik non-hacker --> JohnAs non-haxxor 2 Donnybrook shouts: Hamms, from the land of sky blue wa-aa-ter , maple, why dont ALL christians take seriously the claims of Elvis sightings? --> JohnAs l337 tho riemanngalois(40): maple, why dont ALL christians take seriously the claims of Elvis sightings? (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , is that logical enough now? riemanngalois(40): is that logical enough now? (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): im missing my summary of islam on youtube...which is somehow more informative --> botchvinik was aiming his last comment at Grovel , plk, is that ok now? riemanngalois(40): plk, is that ok now? (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): im learning about the principles of faith of some version of islam GrandLapin(99): egads --> JohnAs greets the one and only, Botchvinik! !BCS->(tips cow) --> SaintEmilion they age beer with chemicals and don't use hops any more either plk(40): still work, riem Donnybrook shouts: "Mabel, Black Lable!" , better ? riemanngalois(40): better ? (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> botchvinik hey Johnas GrandLapin(99): my mark tried to lose me neosmatrix shouts: depends on the beer GrandLapin(99): but now I am following him once more --> JohnAs !BCS->(what's going on, bro?) , plk, i didnt know you're a master of argument , polemics riemanngalois(40): plk, i didnt know you're a master of argument , polemics (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") RxR(40): riemanng, every criticism of christianity is illogical to plk plk(40): it's my opinion, riem. You said you didn't care about it :) --> SaintEmilion I was refering to what my friend told me at Milwaukee brewery Mapleleaf(40): rxr just riems mekkis(40): voodoo is really the best , plk, well i take seriously the accusation of being illogical riemanngalois(40): plk, well i take seriously the accusation of being illogical (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): that's not a very logical statement, RxR :) --> JohnAs sited elvis on a biographical video :) , i dont care if you are personally disturbed by me, but thats because i was cranky riemanngalois(40): i dont care if you are personally disturbed by me, but thats because i was cranky (told 30 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") mekkis(40): u try put down voodoo.. i gonna hex u --> JohnAs got all shook up. plk(40): fallacy of generalization Mapleleaf(40): in fact riems comments have been illogical so far...fairly trivially illogical , maple, i think plk understands me now riemanngalois(40): maple, i think plk understands me now (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") RxR(40): every time I have seen plk speak on criticism of christianity in this channel he just claims the criticism fis illogical --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'jclanton) Mapleleaf(40): ive suggested two ways he could make a better attack on theists , maple, why dont ALL christians take seriously the claims of Elvis sightings? riemanngalois(40): maple, why dont ALL christians take seriously the claims of Elvis sightings? (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Knoeier(TM)(99): A 2 0 atomic drr tourney is open, starting in about 15 minutes, td j 12 to join RxR(40): plk gives no reason, no examples just claims its illogical Mapleleaf(40): riem ive given you two ways to improve your attack on theists --> SaintEmilion we got too many chemicals in our food today Even the dyes are harmful giving ppl all kinds of problems jeisonmartinez(99): td j 12 RxR(40): I guess just saying a thing is illogical is an effective stalling tactics plk(40): you are singling out 3 instances, in 2 of which you were involved, RxR? , maple, if ALL christians are using a consistency of testimony criterion, they should take alien abductions and Elvis sightings (all of them). but clearly this is not the case (many counterexamples) riemanngalois(40): maple, if ALL christians are using a consistency of testimony criterion, they should take alien abductions and Elvis sightings (all of them). but clearly this is not the case (many counterexamples) (told 31 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") jeisonmartinez(99): como hago para inscribirne _? mekkis(40): voodoo people disbeleive in jesus elvis.. or even john lennon neosmatrix shouts: the german beer I drink is made with natural ingredientsl , maple, can you improve on it riemanngalois(40): maple, can you improve on it (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> zulugodetia yes i was feeling a bit blue today saint Mapleleaf(40): riem ill just appeal to miricles and the powers of God... mekkis(40): in voodoo.. u must to spread around the chicken blood RxR(40): I am singling out every instance I have seen, and each time plk has just made a loose accusation that criticism of christianity is illogical , maple, was the last statement illogical? riemanngalois(40): maple, was the last statement illogical? (told 32 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): you have missed most of my tells in this particular instance then, RxR Mapleleaf(40): ok rxr, ive only seen plk's comments today Mapleleaf(40): they seem ok to me jeisonmartinez(99): How do I register? , , plk, is this better, would you agree to this riemanngalois(40): , plk, is this better, would you agree to this (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'Uirapuru) mekkis(40): actually all religion involves spreading around chicken blood --> SaintEmilion Most ppl don't have a clue as to how much harmful stuff is in food especialy dyes --> zulugodetia must have been the dyes, and colourants --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'movealready) plk(40): RxR is sore because I appeared to be critical of him SPogorecki(99): type "td j 12" in the console mekkis(40): all religion is queer and stup[id Grovel shouts: why dont our govt's keep bad things away from us? mekkis(40): rook takes is ok ,plk. CLAIM: if ALL christians are using a consistent criterion of eyewitness testimony, they should take alien abductions and Elvis sightings seriously and not dismiss them. But clearly this is not the case (counterexamples exist) riemanngalois(40): plk. CLAIM: if ALL christians are using a consistent criterion of eyewitness testimony, they should take alien abductions and Elvis sightings seriously and not dismiss them. But clearly this is not the case (counterexamples exist) (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") GrandLapin(99): maybe I'll join towards closing time --> zulugodetia yes, grovel for food dyes observer SPogorecki(99): "t mamer who 12" to see who else is in it --> SaintEmilion that is why ppl are paying more for local grown foods they know they are fresh and free from chemicals Mapleleaf(40): according to this youtube video islam accepts the torah as a main text , , contradiction riemanngalois(40): , contradiction (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> davemanUK the govts job is to invade other countries --> zulugodetia dave :)) --> SaintEmilion and many are growing their own , so my claim is, christians dont all use a consistent criterion of eyewitness testimony riemanngalois(40): so my claim is, christians dont all use a consistent criterion of eyewitness testimony (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Grovel shouts: but after all countries are invaded, then what do we do? , which i prove by reductio riemanngalois(40): which i prove by reductio (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> biencastrojr thk --> biencastrojr you are wining plk(40): the thing is riem, everyone will be inconsistent according to that criterion --> biencastrojr u r winning --> biencastrojr luck only --> Grovel frankly is getting bored of controlling the world [not me personally, my country] , plk, some christians believe in Elvis and aliens riemanngalois(40): plk, some christians believe in Elvis and aliens (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Punkyyyy the light was so focused i bliked blik(C) shouts: Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. plk(40): not all eyewitness accounts have the same weight, which is something that appears obvious Mapleleaf(40): riem i think you misunderstood what i meant by witness acounts when i first raised the point....it was making a disanalogy between them and empiricism --> donpachi tell me about it , plk, how does one go about weighing the eyewitness testimony of Jesus. and saying it has less weight than Elvis sightings riemanngalois(40): plk, how does one go about weighing the eyewitness testimony of Jesus. and saying it has less weight than Elvis sightings (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Grovel shouts: No Luck in Chess unless your opponent is sick, drunk,looking at beautiful women live or in a magazine,high,stoned or worried about huge bills. , or more riemanngalois(40): or more (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Punkyyyy will tell don all about it ;) mekkis(40): whazt will you do? when faced with VooDoo? , less weight, more weight, or equal weight riemanngalois(40): less weight, more weight, or equal weight (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem how does a judge weigh witness accounts during a trial on theft --> SaintEmilion our Gov is been paid off in campaign money to look the other way and our gov gives the excuse that they don't have the money for enough inspectors to watch over the corps who process our food plk(40): perhaps, you could define consistency :) --> zulugodetia can someone please silence pinkie Grovel shouts: or maybe very thirsty or hungry too plk(40): and show how it is somehow good or bad, and when? --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'Uirapuru) --> Punkyyyy pinkie? jeisonmartinez(99): spogorecki how do I to know who is in tournament ? mekkis(40): all religion comes down to this.. to expect god to smell the food yu are cooking Mapleleaf(40): riem it comes down to if you believe the witness...do you accept their sincerity Knoeier(TM)(99): td who jeisonmartinez(99): ok --> Grovel wishes the corporations would start getting morals and give us real safe healthy foods , maple, he takes into account how plausible the story is. if the thief said that he was forced by a demon to steal the money, the judge wont take it seriously (there isnt enough evidence to take such an unusual claim seriously) riemanngalois(40): maple, he takes into account how plausible the story is. if the thief said that he was forced by a demon to steal the money, the judge wont take it seriously (there isnt enough evidence to take such an unusual claim seriously) (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): so, the judge is inconsistent too? :) --> Punkyyyy has to go out to buy a beer :/ plk(40): and is that bad or good? Grovel shouts: I guess morals are too expensive plk(40): or is he inconsistent in the first place? , plk, no the judge isnt inconsistent. there is a rule i was trying to point out riemanngalois(40): plk, no the judge isnt inconsistent. there is a rule i was trying to point out (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Tetoris shouts: Howdy Funky, Pinkie, Punky --> zulugodetia we should have moral hyper stores, "can i have a case of your freshest morals please" plk(40): and does it have anything to do with whether the judge is christian? , evidence has to be proportionate to the degree of unusualness riemanngalois(40): evidence has to be proportionate to the degree of unusualness (told 33 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem, at the end of the day the judge has to see if he trusts what the witness is saying plk(40): where is that rule from? Tetoris shouts: Get me also some beer! , if you make an extraordinary claim, one would be expected to bring more evidence riemanngalois(40): if you make an extraordinary claim, one would be expected to bring more evidence (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Grovel shouts: Howdy Doody Tuttie Fruity Binky Bonkey Zigger Ziggy and Zonky! --> zulugodetia what kind tet? , if the defense has an usual defense, he will probably have to bring more witnesses, for instance, work harder riemanngalois(40): if the defense has an usual defense, he will probably have to bring more witnesses, for instance, work harder (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , unusual* riemanngalois(40): unusual* (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Tetoris shouts: Carling Black Lable, plk(40): why? how does it affect the truth of the claim? and what is extraordinary? Mapleleaf(40): judges really do ask themselves if they trust a witness. because there are far more consistent stories then there are *True* stories , plk, im just saying the practice of law riemanngalois(40): plk, im just saying the practice of law (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): and that is the same point i made to ideo about logic above --> zulugodetia lable it is then |_|D , , plk, for instance my story of the thief being forced by the demon to steal riemanngalois(40): , plk, for instance my story of the thief being forced by the demon to steal (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Tetoris shouts: hahaha Grovel shouts: "We brew only the kindest, sweetest nicest moral beer!" , its an unusual claim, and thus wont be considered strong riemanngalois(40): its an unusual claim, and thus wont be considered strong (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , unless there is evidence to show otherwise riemanngalois(40): unless there is evidence to show otherwise (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Mapleleaf(40): riem you dont read a thing i say, but i think ive pretty comprehensively addressed what youve said...which is far more respect than youve shown me this morning Tetoris shouts: All our beer wins rewards. --> SaintEmilion I know how bad it is and believe me its worst than you think it is. I know cuz in my pest control business I worked in food processing centers and a Gov inspecter would come in and stay for only a few min and leave for the day , im doing my best, im trying to address plk at the moment riemanngalois(40): im doing my best, im trying to address plk at the moment (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dominospizza(40): this Camping's site looks humerous - http://www.familyradio.com/index2.html plk(40): I suggest you address Maple, riem. He HAS been trying to respond to you :) , maple, plk is more consistent than you in addressing me riemanngalois(40): maple, plk is more consistent than you in addressing me (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> zulugodetia but why black label, is it an affirmative action beer? , maple, so i address him first :) riemanngalois(40): maple, so i address him first :) (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Tetoris shouts: Hey Punky. I dont know how atomic works, man. Standard yes. --> Punkyyyy tet is dead? plk(40): thank you, I suppose, though I'm not sure about 'consistent' yet :) --> zulugodetia saint can you take your charming news, and toss it out the window Tetoris shouts: It comes on for more than 100 years. , plk, so did that make sense with the judge and the thief riemanngalois(40): plk, so did that make sense with the judge and the thief (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Tetoris shouts: Punky, I'll play you a 45 r plk(40): legally, yes, logically, I'm not sure :) Pellwurm shouts: tell Pellwurm Thanks for using BabasChess 4.0 (build 12274), this is a custom logon script (you can change it from the Preferences) , plk, right, this may not be rational , so to speak riemanngalois(40): plk, right, this may not be rational , so to speak (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): get back to maple on his comments, though, will you? , evidence has to be proportionate to the degree of plausibility (inductive-wise) riemanngalois(40): evidence has to be proportionate to the degree of plausibility (inductive-wise) (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , thats probably why this is not rational, its more inductive riemanngalois(40): thats probably why this is not rational, its more inductive (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") siggemannen(*)(99): boedi Boedi(99): sigge , so if you have an implausible or less inductively likely story ( a demon forced me to steal), you will need much more evidence to convince riemanngalois(40): so if you have an implausible or less inductively likely story ( a demon forced me to steal), you will need much more evidence to convince (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Boedi(99): played gmonu @ buho , i should say, less inductively likely. implausible has a negative connotation riemanngalois(40): i should say, less inductively likely. implausible has a negative connotation (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> BabasChess(TD) is very happy to see Fide Master TigranPetrasjon is using BabasChess :D ! Boedi(99): almost had him with black 1 game :P --> SaintEmilion next time you get deathly sick from some food you bought in the store just remember who told you so Boedi(99): then got crushed :P siggemannen(*)(99): hahaha siggemannen(*)(99): everyone almost have him siggemannen(*)(99): but that's the thing Boedi(99): I missed a concreet win JohnAs(99): i missed a hot girlfriend. **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2 and the Moscow Championships - Round 1. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" Tetoris shouts: So we must eat unprocessed, fresh food. BabasChess(TD) shouts: RoyRogersC! siggemannen(*)(99): try trollfailing less Boedi(99): queen win and lots of material up , suppose i killed my wife, took out an insurance policy before i did it (motive), and bought a gun... but i tell the judge , someone called me on the phone and said that there were 30 people he was going to shoot if i didnt murder my wife riemanngalois(40): suppose i killed my wife, took out an insurance policy before i did it (motive), and bought a gun... but i tell the judge , someone called me on the phone and said that there were 30 people he was going to shoot if i didnt murder my wife (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Boedi(99): BURN siggemannen(*)(99): good minidoodler shouts: amen, Brother Tetoris! siggemannen(*)(99): are you playing in GLs tourney, boe? , hmmm, bad example riemanngalois(40): hmmm, bad example (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") JohnAs shouts: fresh food with no artificial additives/preservatives/refined sugars. that's the idea, tetoris. Boedi(99): Johnas and fargobear are so caky Boedi(99): of course not siggemannen(*)(99): k siggemannen(*)(99): thought so hehe HyperMagnus(99): sigourd JohnAs(99): i'm more than caky. i'm cooky. HyperMagnus(99): <3 --> Tetoris feels proud. siggemannen(*)(99): hype Boedi(99): BOEM Boedi(99): need to improve my game @ buho JohnAs(99): i realize that i should play 10 more atom games but Boedi(99): then I might start playing here JohnAs(99): i'm not ready yet , plk, maybe you could be my maple interpretor riemanngalois(40): plk, maybe you could be my maple interpretor (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Tetoris shouts: Hey minidoodler. What do you doodle? , translate what he says into what i can understand riemanngalois(40): translate what he says into what i can understand (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") GrandLapin(99): make yourselves useful and join the nuclear fallout siggemannen(*)(99): kewl plk(40): perhaps, riem. But, I don't have enough spare time :) Knoeier(TM)(99): Anyone for a 2 0 Atomic DRR tourney, td j 12 to join plk(40): and it would add an extra layer of translation (or 2 if you count both ways) JohnAs(99): plus u guys look at me like a seagull at a potato french fry thrown out of someone's car window at a McDonald's fast-food parking lot , plk, ok someone goes and shoots ten people in a subway. the judge says, are you guilty. the murderer says a demon forced me to do it, and i have a witness who also saw the demon riemanngalois(40): plk, ok someone goes and shoots ten people in a subway. the judge says, are you guilty. the murderer says a demon forced me to do it, and i have a witness who also saw the demon (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") JohnAs(99): atom takes dedication. , but the judge doesnt let the murderer free riemanngalois(40): but the judge doesnt let the murderer free (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PCM(36): 1+1 JohnAs(99): i'd rather play chess now since i can't break my comfort zone :\ , also the murderer claims the demon is gone riemanngalois(40): also the murderer claims the demon is gone (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , after being blessed by a priest riemanngalois(40): after being blessed by a priest (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") JohnAs(99): i feel sad :X no explozunz 4 meh , the judge will put him in jail for life or a mental institution, why? riemanngalois(40): the judge will put him in jail for life or a mental institution, why? (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> SaintEmilion of course kids like zulugodetia can't be told anything cuz they know it all plk(40): you have a real case such as this in mind? , because in practice, it is inductively unlikely for a demon to force you to kill. so one would need A LOT of evidence riemanngalois(40): because in practice, it is inductively unlikely for a demon to force you to kill. so one would need A LOT of evidence (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , plk, im trying to build a case against the testimony of jesus riemanngalois(40): plk, im trying to build a case against the testimony of jesus (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> neosmatrix play chess for exersice and dont care to win or lose so Im rolling on the floor to see idiots like you cheating and using help to beat such a modest player like me, what a great complimant to my game as I never cheat or use help , get off U R censored plk(40): with an imaginary case? , well there have been cases of demon posession riemanngalois(40): well there have been cases of demon posession (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") MoltenThinker(99): uggh sigge begins himself skiffle shouts: me? , errr, a mother killed her children because the child was posessed riemanngalois(40): errr, a mother killed her children because the child was posessed (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Inductively unlikely? --> BabasChess(TD) notes Knoeier is in da house , she heard voices riemanngalois(40): she heard voices (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") siggemannen(*)(99): hey motley JohnAs(40): i hear voices 2 siggemannen(*)(99): how goes , yes it is unlikely those voices were real entities riemanngalois(40): yes it is unlikely those voices were real entities (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") JohnAs(40): voices that tell me to "RUUUUUUNNNNNNN!!!!!" Feryl(40): What makes you think induction is a valid form of logic? , as a christian judge you would have a serious consistency problem riemanngalois(40): as a christian judge you would have a serious consistency problem (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , feryl, im not saying that it is JohnAs(40): "don't look back! EVER!!!! HURYYYYY!!!!" riemanngalois(40): feryl, im not saying that it is (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") JohnAs(40): i tell that voice 2 shut up :(( , im saying that , in practice, what is reasonable to do riemanngalois(40): im saying that , in practice, what is reasonable to do (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): The judge will throw it out using Ockham's razor. He will prefer the simpler explanation. , ahhhh riemanngalois(40): ahhhh (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Grovel shouts: Arnold and Tiger cheated so why can't we? , but a christian judge should have a hard time using ochams razor riemanngalois(40): but a christian judge should have a hard time using ochams razor (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , would have a harder time riemanngalois(40): would have a harder time (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") JohnAs shouts: how'd they cheat MoltenThinker(99): I show moltey JohnAs shouts: Grovel* - how'd they cheat, Grovel? Feryl(40): Why is that? Grovel shouts: By doing the wild thang! MoltenThinker(99): I will snap you in place JohnAs shouts: Grovel, was this during Arnold's governorship? , if ALL christians are using a consistency of testimony criterion, they should take alien abductions and Elvis sightings (all of them). but clearly this is not the case (many counterexamples) riemanngalois(40): if ALL christians are using a consistency of testimony criterion, they should take alien abductions and Elvis sightings (all of them). but clearly this is not the case (many counterexamples) (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Grovel shouts: prob most of his life MoltenThinker(99): to me you are mad king George --> callipygian(C) seeks a game or three --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'callipygian) --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'whiteguardian) , feryl, because the christian judge believes the claims of jesus doing unlikely things , miracles, the testimony of it riemanngalois(40): feryl, because the christian judge believes the claims of jesus doing unlikely things , miracles, the testimony of it (told 43 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Grovel shouts: These are our Role Models. We must emulate them. Feryl(40): I think there's a two testimony rule. They would prefer the testimony of two (or maybe it's three) witnesses. --> whiteguardian good morning/evening/afternoon everyone and blik blik(C) shouts: Curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. MoltenThinker(99): well that was that JohnAs shouts: being sexually active or wanting to sleep with multiple women is actually written in code , i have been led to believe, , feryl, why would a christian judge have no problem dismissing the evidence of a murderer posessed by true demons, but when the eyewitnesses of the new testament claim that jesus did miracles he doesnt dismiss them riemanngalois(40): feryl, why would a christian judge have no problem dismissing the evidence of a murderer posessed by true demons, but when the eyewitnesses of the new testament claim that jesus did miracles he doesnt dismiss them (told 43 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Grovel shouts: Fortran or Basic? JohnAs shouts: abstinence is against the grain of nature JohnAs shouts: 4chan. , thats applying a double standard riemanngalois(40): thats applying a double standard (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): The question is why you believe two witnesses when they say someone killed someone and they saw it with their own eyes, but you don't believe eyewitnesses that claim to have seen miracles. Feryl(40): Previous philosophical bias, I assume. Grovel shouts: But along the way humans created something called "morals" , you mean because of ochams razor riemanngalois(40): you mean because of ochams razor (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> SaintEmilion the pope just announced that he is gonna let priests do it now Feryl(40): Deuteronomy 19:15 apparently is the rule. Two witnesses are required , but ochams razor is grounded in induction, and also probabilistic independence multiplicativity riemanngalois(40): but ochams razor is grounded in induction, and also probabilistic independence multiplicativity (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") JohnAs shouts: morals. JohnAs shouts: MORALS!!!! GrandLapin(99): anyone with access to the page is welcome to update btw Grovel shouts: Priests get busy? GrandLapin(99): I just did , the more events in conjunction, the probabilities are lower riemanngalois(40): the more events in conjunction, the probabilities are lower (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." JohnAs shouts: i see "oral" JohnAs shouts: jk. Feryl(40): No, Ockham's razor is an assumption. Feryl(40): It's not grounded in anything. Grovel shouts: oral roberts is dead i think , feryl, so why does a christian judge today dismiss the Elvis sightings, but does not dismiss the sightings of Jesus after he died riemanngalois(40): feryl, so why does a christian judge today dismiss the Elvis sightings, but does not dismiss the sightings of Jesus after he died (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") donpachi(40): isnt there a difference between a murder and a miracle? --> TheBartender says hmmm... JohnAs shouts: how about Moral Orel from that cartoon that depicts .. um.. Feryl(40): What's the difference? cachorronojento(99): anyone play 2 tourneys games now? , feryl , not all christian judges, but many do riemanngalois(40): feryl , not all christian judges, but many do (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") donpachi(40): exactly what is it? GrandLapin(99): it's preferred that you play them all at once cacho plk(40): you state that riem. But again, on what basis? Feryl(40): Lots of people say they're Christian but don't ask like it. cachorronojento(99): ok , feryl, the answer is , extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence riemanngalois(40): feryl, the answer is , extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): er... act like it. Feryl(40): What makes a claim "extraordinary"? , plk, on the basis of jaron graffe, b3, and people i know, 30 to be exact (an entire christian church as well that i have asked ) riemanngalois(40): plk, on the basis of jaron graffe, b3, and people i know, 30 to be exact (an entire christian church as well that i have asked ) (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , how out of place it is riemanngalois(40): how out of place it is (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): and where does that statement come from, in the first place? a legal heuristic has limited value , how non common it is riemanngalois(40): how non common it is (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , the more unusual the claim, one would expect more evidence riemanngalois(40): the more unusual the claim, one would expect more evidence (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): 'one' 'would' 'expect' ? Feryl(40): So something that happened only once in history would be uncommon and doubtful? , this happens in murder trials all the time. when the defense has an unusual explanation, he needs more time to explain it, more witnesses, etc riemanngalois(40): this happens in murder trials all the time. when the defense has an unusual explanation, he needs more time to explain it, more witnesses, etc (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , feryl, yes riemanngalois(40): feryl, yes (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") cachorronojento(99): anyone play 6 games to the tourney? , plk, yeah? riemanngalois(40): plk, yeah? (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") plk(40): everything happens in history only once, realy. Feryl(40): For example, the claim that life could have come from non-life once, long ago, in a primordial soup with no witnesses... would be an extraordinary claim? plk(40): really* , plk, i understand this is going outside the bounds of rationality. but im now entering the practical world of measuring testiomony riemanngalois(40): plk, i understand this is going outside the bounds of rationality. but im now entering the practical world of measuring testiomony (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Requiring, perhaps, extraordinary evidence? That we should naturally be biased against this claim? cachorronojento(99): anyone wants play the toruney games ? --> Punkyyyy / cachorronojento(99): ok plk(40): ok, you are a lawyer arguing a certain case, then. , feryl, i hope you would be. otherwise you would believe every wingspan and bull story , be tricked by every magician, etc riemanngalois(40): feryl, i hope you would be. otherwise you would believe every wingspan and bull story , be tricked by every magician, etc (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") tipau(99): hey plk(40): of what are you trying to indict christianity? , feryl, i prefer the term skepticism to bias riemanngalois(40): feryl, i prefer the term skepticism to bias (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") cachorronojento(99): hi tipau GrandLapin(99): maybe tipau will cach tipau(99): lot of ppl online cachorronojento(99): latter i will return tipau(99): ? -chan 99 [99] removed from your channel list. Feryl(40): So basically evolution, by which I mean the claim that all life has evolved from one common ancestor, is an extraordinary claim that we should reject. , feryl, you cant answer a question with another question, lol riemanngalois(40): feryl, you cant answer a question with another question, lol (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , thats not playing fair now riemanngalois(40): thats not playing fair now (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , science at the moment does not know how life originated, riemanngalois(40): science at the moment does not know how life originated, (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") RxR(40): this isnt about being fair , its a trench war to defend ones world view , oh wait, i misread riemanngalois(40): oh wait, i misread (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , i thought you were referring to abiogensis riemanngalois(40): i thought you were referring to abiogensis (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): So science doesn't claim that all life has descended from one common ancestor? ,riemanngalois(40): feryl, so why does a christian judge today dismiss the Elvis sightings, but does not dismiss the sightings of Jesus after he died plk(40): you state that riem. But again, on what basis? riemanngalois(40): riemanngalois(40): feryl, so why does a christian judge today dismiss the Elvis sightings, but does not dismiss the sightings of Jesus after he died plk(40): you state that riem. But again, on what basis? (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , plk, on the basis of what is practiced today riemanngalois(40): plk, on the basis of what is practiced today (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , feryl, it does, how is this relevant riemanngalois(40): feryl, it does, how is this relevant (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , evolution has a HUGE amount of evidence riemanngalois(40): evolution has a HUGE amount of evidence (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , because its an unusual claim riemanngalois(40): because its an unusual claim (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , this isnt a counterexample , if thats what you are trying to say riemanngalois(40): this isnt a counterexample , if thats what you are trying to say (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2 and the Moscow Championships - Round 1. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" Feryl(40): What makes you think there is evidence for common descent? What makes you think evidence is relevant? Tetoris shouts: Hey Punky. Wheres the beer? , we have extensive evidence of fossil record riemanngalois(40): we have extensive evidence of fossil record (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Punkyyyy in the wine shop , the evidence is relevant? what do you mean, fossils are not relevant to evolution, lol? riemanngalois(40): the evidence is relevant? what do you mean, fossils are not relevant to evolution, lol? (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Fossils tend to falsify the Darwinian explanation. --> Punkyyyy will go out in 5 min Feryl(40): Trying to prove something true using evidence is engaging in a logical fallacy. Tetoris shouts: Ok. , feryl, what do you mean riemanngalois(40): feryl, what do you mean (told 43 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , how do you prove something true then? riemanngalois(40): how do you prove something true then? (told 43 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Here's a theory: If the sky god is sad, it will rain. I note that it is raining, so the hypothesis is confirmed... is this a valid logical chain? timewsy(40): you need to take that leap to say, something is true if it's true --> Punkyyyy asks tet what he'l want punk to have. , feryl, one can prove causality, thats the goal of science riemanngalois(40): feryl, one can prove causality, thats the goal of science (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , not merely correlation riemanngalois(40): not merely correlation (told 45 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): How can one prove causality? , there are various ways, double blind studies riemanngalois(40): there are various ways, double blind studies (told 45 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , but your example is not a correlation, what is it correlating? riemanngalois(40): but your example is not a correlation, what is it correlating? (told 45 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , if the sky god is sad, then it will rain riemanngalois(40): if the sky god is sad, then it will rain (told 46 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , theres nothing to correlate here, you need empirical data riemanngalois(40): theres nothing to correlate here, you need empirical data (told 46 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , you can correlate say the number of churches with crime rate (positively correlated) riemanngalois(40): you can correlate say the number of churches with crime rate (positively correlated) (told 45 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): If evolution is true then we will find a certain fossil record. We find a certain fossil record, so evolution is confirmed. This is a logical fallacy called "affirming the consequent." It means nothing. Feryl(40): We could also say, "If there was a Great Flood (Noah), we will find sea fossils on land... we find sea fossils on land so we know there was a Great Flood." donpachi(40): actually evolution as such has been observed , feryl, saying the sky god is sad, then it will rain, thats begging the question. no correlation there riemanngalois(40): feryl, saying the sky god is sad, then it will rain, thats begging the question. no correlation there (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Evolution, by which I mean the theory that all life has descended from one common ancestor, has not been observed. , also sky god is sad is not a falsifiable assertion riemanngalois(40): also sky god is sad is not a falsifiable assertion (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , wouldnt be considered empirical riemanngalois(40): wouldnt be considered empirical (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Natural selection is not a falsifiable assertion. , it is falsifiable riemanngalois(40): it is falsifiable (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , if one can show evidence that its false riemanngalois(40): if one can show evidence that its false (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") WorkOrChess(40): if gravity is true, things will fall down. if thing fall down, gravity is true. I don't know why people believe this nonsense about things falling down Feryl(40): What observation could one make that would falsify the theory of natural selection? timewsy(40): but einstein showed that gravity is not accurate , somebody help me out riemanngalois(40): somebody help me out (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'MrBugBlind) , feryl, i will get back to you. im positive somebody answered this . i read it online riemanngalois(40): feryl, i will get back to you. im positive somebody answered this . i read it online (told 43 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): First of all, gravity is not a theory. Secondly, gravity is unproven. , you cant prove things in science. they are tentative laws, until they are no longer true riemanngalois(40): you cant prove things in science. they are tentative laws, until they are no longer true (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , one looks for counterexamples riemanngalois(40): one looks for counterexamples (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Popperian falsification. Most scientists don't subscribe to this style of science. They prefer statistics. algra shouts: oi oi oi --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'algra) , for instance, gravity has been shown to occur time and time again, without counterexample. so its considered like a law riemanngalois(40): for instance, gravity has been shown to occur time and time again, without counterexample. so its considered like a law (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , feryl, but to answer you, there is evidence to falsify natural selection riemanngalois(40): feryl, but to answer you, there is evidence to falsify natural selection (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): A law is simply an observation that something seems to happen all the time. Like the law of conservation of energy. No attempt is made to explain why it happens that way. --> Grovel tosses algra a post rapture Guinness |_|D , feryl, what were you talking about earlier. about we dont take the testimony of miracles seriously, even today in court riemanngalois(40): feryl, what were you talking about earlier. about we dont take the testimony of miracles seriously, even today in court (told 45 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Are you saying natural selection has been falsified? dddpsm shouts: BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU Feryl(40): If four people came and told me that they had personally seen a man raised from the dead, I would believe them. --> algra slides a kilkenny down the bar to grovel :) cheers donpachi(40): plenty of them around , suppose somebody robbed a bank at night, no witnesses. all the money was found in Bob's house. and Bob says that an angel appeared and gave him the money riemanngalois(40): suppose somebody robbed a bank at night, no witnesses. all the money was found in Bob's house. and Bob says that an angel appeared and gave him the money (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , who do you think the judge will believe riemanngalois(40): who do you think the judge will believe (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Grovel shouts: Cheers algra [slides some mixed nuts back to algra] PCM(36): A simple puzzle : --> GBate(*) algra GBates better than GBate Feryl(40): Now if they said something like a Carthage general crossed the Alps in elephants to attack Rome... that would be doubtful. --> GBate(*) GBeer, Grovel |_|D ? Dreadtower(33): ...... \_@< davemanUK(36): 2 Feryl(40): Judges don't decide criminal cases. The cases are decided by juries. --> algra GBates daily :) PCM(36): YOu have a box of marbles, 23 white, 34 black. ,, feryl, i was saying that natural selection is able to be falsified riemanngalois(40): , feryl, i was saying that natural selection is able to be falsified (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Grovel accepts his patented sawdust free (C) GBeer |_|D davemanUK(36): do I? Feryl(40): I assume the money would be checked for fingerprints and attempts would be made to establish or rule out an alibi. PCM(36): You pick two marbles at random, and look at them. --> Mexloco resume PCM(36): Yes you do davemanUK(36): Why do I? Feryl(40): If natural selection can be falsified, what observations would I need to make to falsify it? PCM(36): If they are both white you put a black marble back in the box PCM(36): Why does the wind blows ? All I can tell you is it does. Jonfern shouts: hiya! here again! PCM(36): If they are both black you put a black marble back in the box davemanUK(36): wait the first one didnt make sense PCM(36): If they are one white and one black, you put a white marble back in the box. davemanUK(36): if they are both white, where did the black marble come from? PCM(36): You repeat this until there is only one marble left. PCM(36): You magically produced it. Grovel shouts: GBate's GBeers are so tasty, my tongue is doing the Macarena. |_|D davemanUK(36): i shall solve this puzze by magic Feryl(40): If, for example, I saw that the fastest horse died without leaving offspring would that falsify natural selection? PCM(36): Eggcellent , no riemanngalois(40): no (told 45 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , why do you say that evolution is affirming the counsequent, i dont get that riemanngalois(40): why do you say that evolution is affirming the counsequent, i dont get that (told 45 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Ok, so what would I need to observe to falsify the theory of natural selection? Feryl(40): Ok, let's assume that all life has descended from one common ancestor... for the sake of argument. Feryl(40): What would we observe in the world? , feryl, if 4 people said that they heard a donkey talk, you would believe them? riemanngalois(40): feryl, if 4 people said that they heard a donkey talk, you would believe them? (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): That DNA is similar from one organism to another? Feryl(40): Yes, I would. , hmmmm riemanngalois(40): hmmmm (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , you wouldnt wait for scientists to study the donkey> riemanngalois(40): you wouldnt wait for scientists to study the donkey> (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , ok , so if all life descended from one ancestor, what? riemanngalois(40): ok , so if all life descended from one ancestor, what? (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): What would a scientist be able to tell me about that donkey (not having been an eyewitness) that the eyewitness wouldn't be able to tell me? PCM(36): So, the puzzle is finding out the color of the remaining marble. --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'MoosMutz) , to rule out things like, the 4 people are not on drugs, etc riemanngalois(40): to rule out things like, the 4 people are not on drugs, etc (told 44 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): If all life descended from a common ancestor, their DNA will be similar. Their DNA is similar... so what can we conclude? Feryl(40): Answer: We can't conclude anything at all. , well its a theory that explains the similiarity of DNA riemanngalois(40): well its a theory that explains the similiarity of DNA (told 43 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") davemanUK(36): so if both white u put in a black marble? , its the best explanation we have riemanngalois(40): its the best explanation we have (told 43 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PCM(36): No, you do Feryl(40): Why is that the best explanation? Why isn't "God made them all the same way" the best explanation? , because that is an intellectual dead end riemanngalois(40): because that is an intellectual dead end (told 43 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , there is nothing to test there riemanngalois(40): there is nothing to test there (told 43 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): But there's something to test in the theory of natural selection? , no further conclusions, no experimentation, refining theory, etc riemanngalois(40): no further conclusions, no experimentation, refining theory, etc (told 43 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , yes you can refine the theory, test it against fossil findings, etc riemanngalois(40): yes you can refine the theory, test it against fossil findings, etc (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): How can you test it? , look to see if it explains well the fossile record riemanngalois(40): look to see if it explains well the fossile record (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") davemanUK(36): so this will end up with a ot of black marbles , if it predicts well riemanngalois(40): if it predicts well (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , its like mathematical modeling riemanngalois(40): its like mathematical modeling (told 43 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") RxR(40): hehe, well I once saw a christian here claim that life after death is falsfiable as you find out when you die Feryl(40): But even if it explains the fossil record well, nothing is proved. Tsvetkov(40): just because 2 things are similar does not mean they came from the same place , its a model riemanngalois(40): its a model (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Ok, well, theoretically Christianity is falsifiable because you could find Jesus' tomb with a body in it. BlitzThree(40): Feryl, Jesus' body has never been found because he's in Heaven with the Father davemanUK(36): i think the answer woud be black but im not sure , feryl, no because the christians will say its the wrong person riemanngalois(40): feryl, no because the christians will say its the wrong person (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , besides, how will jesus look like? his name is very common too riemanngalois(40): besides, how will jesus look like? his name is very common too (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Finding a fossil that disproved current ideas on evolution would also suffer from that problem... that scientists might claim it's a fake or somehow got misplaced in the fossil record due to earthquakes or floods or something. , feryl, thats simply false. riemanngalois(40): feryl, thats simply false. (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , they would do further testing of course riemanngalois(40): they would do further testing of course (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2 and the Moscow Championships - Round 1. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" , feryl, youre making a claim what if scientists were dishonest. this is silly. riemanngalois(40): feryl, youre making a claim what if scientists were dishonest. this is silly. (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , what if galileo was a liar , what if. then the next generation would have to discover the laws of projectiles riemanngalois(40): what if galileo was a liar , what if. then the next generation would have to discover the laws of projectiles (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): So if I found rocks, for example, tektites... radioactively dated to billions of years old... along with ancient civilization's tools... science would admit evolution was wrong? , yes of course riemanngalois(40): yes of course (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): Jesus ascended in His body into Heaven and is now seated at the right hand of the Father making intercessions for us , on earth? riemanngalois(40): on earth? (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , b3 , did you go to church today? riemanngalois(40): b3 , did you go to church today? (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , how come you didnt stay for the meal? and socializing riemanngalois(40): how come you didnt stay for the meal? and socializing (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Like, for example, http://www.detectingdesign.com/radiometricdating.html#Tektites BlitzThree(40): have there ever been dishonest scientists ? I can think of some , i never heard of this riemanngalois(40): i never heard of this (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , b3, its irrelevant. dishonest scientists will be found by scientists later riemanngalois(40): b3, its irrelevant. dishonest scientists will be found by scientists later (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , science is robust, we can learn from our mistakes. unlike dogma (religion) which is inflexible riemanngalois(40): science is robust, we can learn from our mistakes. unlike dogma (religion) which is inflexible (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Eighty percent of medical research is later convincingly falsified. , that tells me science is robust riemanngalois(40): that tells me science is robust (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Strange how when religion is wrong, everyone claims it's bad... but when science is wrong... that proves it's good. BlitzThree(40): hi riemann, I didn't go to church today. I'm not Roman catholic so Protestants believe it's not a sin to miss church , it should be disturbing to you that religion is never changed, even when burning witches or dunking them in water has no effect on disease or crops riemanngalois(40): it should be disturbing to you that religion is never changed, even when burning witches or dunking them in water has no effect on disease or crops (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , b3, ok riemanngalois(40): b3, ok (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Rie, could you tell me which Bible verse says witches being burned or dunking them in water will eliminate disease or cause better crops? , b3 , you can praise god in other ways i guess riemanngalois(40): b3 , you can praise god in other ways i guess (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dolochovi shouts: ........ , feryl, medieval christianity riemanngalois(40): feryl, medieval christianity (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): as for dishonest scintists, there were recently some who changed their data to support global warming Feryl(40): Rie, please... Bible verses. , b3, but how else did you find out, if not for honest scientists riemanngalois(40): b3, but how else did you find out, if not for honest scientists (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , medieval ? riemanngalois(40): medieval ? (told 43 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dolochovi shouts: o'u^ i'a i a'a^ y'o'i^ a^e'i' e^i^a ii^a^aaeai'e'a , cmon guys, i cant speak for all atheists. where are you? riemanngalois(40): cmon guys, i cant speak for all atheists. where are you? (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): and remember the scientists who claimed to have found cold fusion? , they are still working on it riemanngalois(40): they are still working on it (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") :mamer(TD) t-shouts: 3 0 r KO tourney: "td join 13" to join. , cold fusion isnt a bad idea. riemanngalois(40): cold fusion isnt a bad idea. (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Perkl(40): maybe you should convert to santaism? PCM(40): Interesting link ! BlitzThree(40): no one could replicate their results Feryl(40): I was led to believe that some fossils purporting to be ancient humans were known to be forgeries. , feryl, so what does tektikes show riemanngalois(40): feryl, so what does tektikes show (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Did you read the link? Feryl(40): http://www.detectingdesign.com/radiometricdating.html#Tektites BlitzThree(40): I don't wait til one hour a week to be with God, I'm with God all day every day Feryl(40): Physically? , feryl, the issue youre addressing, affirming the consequent. well science is like proof by contradiction. suppose this model is true, if it leads to a counterexample then we scrap the assumptions of the model. but since we dont find counterexample, the strength of the model increases riemanngalois(40): feryl, the issue youre addressing, affirming the consequent. well science is like proof by contradiction. suppose this model is true, if it leads to a counterexample then we scrap the assumptions of the model. but since we dont find counterexample, the strength of the model increases (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): yui can pray to God anytime BlitzThree(40): you* Feryl(40): Like, for example, the photos of Arp proving the Big Bang theory models completely wrong? PCM(40): You got a link for that ? BlitzThree(40): you can read God's Word anytime , feryl, obviously we cant replicate a billion years in the laboratory. but we can show natural selection on fruit flies (which have short lives) riemanngalois(40): feryl, obviously we cant replicate a billion years in the laboratory. but we can show natural selection on fruit flies (which have short lives) (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): http://www.electric-cosmos.org/arp.htm Scroll to the bottom and look at the last 2 pictures. :mamer(TD) t-shouts: 3 0 r KO tourney: "td join 13" to join. silveursilveur shouts: ????? Feryl(40): Showing natural selection means nothing. First you must establish that natural selection is falsifiable. Feryl(40): I ask again... what could I observe in the real world that would falsify natural selection , feryl, that is difficult given the duration of time riemanngalois(40): feryl, that is difficult given the duration of time (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , one sec, you sent me an extremely biased website riemanngalois(40): one sec, you sent me an extremely biased website (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): If the fruit flies that lived 20% longer than the others died out... would that disprove natural selection? --> maxinat password <kdmirx> <Lar27210> Feryl(40): Extremely biased... as though talk.origins was objective. --> Punkyyyy loves timewsy! , feryl, whats your counterexample to natural selection? riemanngalois(40): feryl, whats your counterexample to natural selection? (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> GBate(*)(TM) You might want to change that password again, maxinat --> Punkyyyy xDD , you sent me detectingdesign.com riemanngalois(40): you sent me detectingdesign.com (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Natural selection is a metaphysical claim. Unfalsifiable... like a religion. It's not science. Feryl(40): I see. Detectingdesign.com is biased... but talk.origins is objective... right? BlitzThree(40): here are some nicely colored pictures of space http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP_CwMr7yvc Feryl(40): I'm running Windows 98. I can't YouTube. --> Punkyyyy also loves rie,chest,dock,grov,nakedchick,jb,lightkni,moosy xD --> biencastrojr good game , feryl, how do tektikes disprove evolution> riemanngalois(40): feryl, how do tektikes disprove evolution> (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> biencastrojr :-) --> Punkyyyy loves blik blik(C) shouts: Cows can sleep while standing up, but they only dream if they lie down. , feryl, wikipedia is neutral riemanngalois(40): feryl, wikipedia is neutral (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> biencastrojr thanks Feryl(40): You must be joking about Wikipedia. BlitzThree(40): anyone can edit wikipedia , whats wrong with it? riemanngalois(40): whats wrong with it? (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Punkyyyy loves krell,tetoris,ngjens,cannibalgirl klevdav(40): Occums Razor is here! Feryl(40): Ok, according to teh article, Australian tektites dated to 700,000 years (using K-Ar dating) --> Punkyyyy loves klevdav,naomi Feryl(40): Have been found in situ with Australian aboriginal implements. BlitzThree(40): wikipedia is only 90% accurate , ok riemanngalois(40): ok (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Punkyyyy and mapleleaf , not bad for a free encyclopedia riemanngalois(40): not bad for a free encyclopedia (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): "This zone had been previously dated by the radiocarbon method at seven locales, the oldest dating at only 7,300 radiocarbon years" --> Punkyyyy ok and blitzthree Feryl(40): According to the website , largest encyclopedia in earth riemanngalois(40): largest encyclopedia in earth (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Punkyyyy finally loves johnas :D , ok riemanngalois(40): ok (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , feryl, i need to see both sides of the issue riemanngalois(40): feryl, i need to see both sides of the issue (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> GBate(*)(TM) imagines himself on another Punkyyyy list :) BlitzThree(40): are you willing to put up with 10% false information?? PCM(40): Feryl, what is your position ? Are you a xian ? Feryl(40): According to the website, "The possibility of transport from an older source area was investigated and ruled out. Since the "Port Campbell australites include the best preserved tektites in the world ... any movement of the australites that has occurred ... has been gentle and has not covered a great distance" Feryl(40): Most Christians tell me I'm not Christian. PCM(40): :) Conspicuous(40): i know suicide, but not the pawns game Feryl(40): Most atheists tell me I must be a creationist redneck inbred bible thumper. , feryl, there is no mention of that in wikipedia riemanngalois(40): feryl, there is no mention of that in wikipedia (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Conspicuous(40): mt , feryl, i suspect your link is refuted elsewhere riemanngalois(40): feryl, i suspect your link is refuted elsewhere (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Philosophicus accepts me as a fellow nihilist. PCM(40): I can't be either then. Lol --> GBate(*)(TM) and for that matter, for similar reason(s), on many FICS members lists :) --> Punkyyyy apologizes to gbate ;) --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'AaNzZz) , no mention of 700,000 years riemanngalois(40): no mention of 700,000 years (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Punkyyyy also <3s Gbate,boedi and andreasw! , its a really long article feryl, i will look into it riemanngalois(40): its a really long article feryl, i will look into it (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): The article has footnotes linking to its source for the information , but i would like to see the counter arguments, riemanngalois(40): but i would like to see the counter arguments, (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): The most recent is the Peru Whale fossil thing, which is how I found the site. PCM(40): Both links are far over my head, could be simple forgeries for all I know. But they sure are interesting. RxR(40): its pretty easy, if you believe jesus is connected to god and was resurrected from the dead you are christian , which is the other link? riemanngalois(40): which is the other link? (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): The arp one... wait... let me find it again , rxr, ive been accused multiple times tonight of being illogical. and got schooled by plk riemanngalois(40): rxr, ive been accused multiple times tonight of being illogical. and got schooled by plk (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , but i refined my claims riemanngalois(40): but i refined my claims (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): RxR, there's more to it than that Feryl(40): http://www.electric-cosmos.org/arp.htm Go to the bottom and look at the bottom two pictures. , ,ok riemanngalois(40): ,ok (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Of a quasar and a galaxy RxR(40): thats good riemanng , rxr, feryl claimed that if 4 people witnessed a donkey talk, he would believe it riemanngalois(40): rxr, feryl claimed that if 4 people witnessed a donkey talk, he would believe it (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): According to the article, these two pictures disprove the Big Bang theory. BlitzThree(40): this is one of the essentials to be a Christian: Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Feryl(40): Sure would. Four witnesses is good evidence. PCM(40): However, "Because of Arp's photos, the assumption that high red shift objects have to be very far away - on which the "Big Bang" theory and all of "accepted cosmology" is based - is proven to be wrong! The Big Bang theory is therefore falsified.".... , feryl, now that probably has many refutations, counter-arguments riemanngalois(40): feryl, now that probably has many refutations, counter-arguments (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PCM(40): That is very poor science. javannanda shouts: Teutoburgo invites you to download the FICS Screen Saver from: http://teutoburgo.web44.net/scacchi/ficsSaver.html RxR(40): riemanng, feryl is an original thinker. , well, he is an exception to what i was referring to riemanngalois(40): well, he is an exception to what i was referring to (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): I take it you wouldn't believe a donkey spoke even if several eyewitnesses told you they had seen it happen. **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2 and the Moscow Championships - Round 1. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" , feryl, correct riemanngalois(40): feryl, correct (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Why? , feryl, because people can be tricked , riemanngalois(40): feryl, because people can be tricked , (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): Feryl believes every religion ... but every religion can't be true PCM(40): Would I take witness of 4 people of donkey speaking ? Depends on situation, AND IT SHOULD FOR YOU TOO , feryl, hallucination, could be a programmed donkey, etc riemanngalois(40): feryl, hallucination, could be a programmed donkey, etc (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): I can't tell which religion is right, so I try to keep an open mind. PCM(40): I heard a donkey talk. PCM(40): Please 3 more people Feryl(40): Who was with you? , feryl, 4 witnesses wouldnt do it riemanngalois(40): feryl, 4 witnesses wouldnt do it (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PCM(40): riemann, help me out BlitzThree(40): some religions say the complete opposite of others PCM(40): Did you hear a donkey talk ? , pcm, lol riemanngalois(40): pcm, lol (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , whats the joke? riemanngalois(40): whats the joke? (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PCM(40): Just making a point PCM(40): If I whore for helpers like this, I OBVIOUSLY am still untrustworthy with my 3 other witnesses. , feryl, well i was making a point, in jurisprudence, a jury would have a hard time believein a donkey can talk, even with 4 witnesses riemanngalois(40): feryl, well i was making a point, in jurisprudence, a jury would have a hard time believein a donkey can talk, even with 4 witnesses (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PCM(40): In other circumstances, maybe I would be trustworthy. Feryl(40): Why would they have a hard time with that? PCM(40): So, depends on situation , feryl, because its extremely unusual riemanngalois(40): feryl, because its extremely unusual (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): As unusual as a black swan? , extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence riemanngalois(40): extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , yes more unusual riemanngalois(40): yes more unusual (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Or a white raven? , thats just the color of the feathers riemanngalois(40): thats just the color of the feathers (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , a donkey talking would even have evolutionary counsequences riemanngalois(40): a donkey talking would even have evolutionary counsequences (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'uragano) , it doesnt cohere very well with what we know riemanngalois(40): it doesnt cohere very well with what we know (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Why? It might be a simple one-time miracle like Paul's donkey talking to him. , we dont really know how to define a miracle riemanngalois(40): we dont really know how to define a miracle (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , to put it simply riemanngalois(40): to put it simply (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , calling it simple, doesnt help riemanngalois(40): calling it simple, doesnt help (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'movealready) Feryl(40): It's like pornography. I can't define it, but I recognize it when I see it. , how does a miracle occur exactly? if god is immaterial, how does he effect material riemanngalois(40): how does a miracle occur exactly? if god is immaterial, how does he effect material (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Apparently God's faith is uber strong. Introspection(40): :-J , also a one time miracle would be terrible, we cant replicate it riemanngalois(40): also a one time miracle would be terrible, we cant replicate it (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") klevdav(40): ok now you're getting somewhere **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 4th Calgary International Chess Classic 2011 - Round 6 and the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" , so it would like an Elvis sighting, alien abduction riemanngalois(40): so it would like an Elvis sighting, alien abduction (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Can you replicate life coming from non-life is an ancient organic soup without eyewitnesses? , but i rank Jesus rising from the dead with this one time miracle events riemanngalois(40): but i rank Jesus rising from the dead with this one time miracle events (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Can you replicate Hannibal crossing the Alps with elephants to attack Rome? , i lump together riemanngalois(40): i lump together (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , feryl, but that is within the scope of ordinary existence riemanngalois(40): feryl, but that is within the scope of ordinary existence (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , that doesnt require me to abandon all my experience riemanngalois(40): that doesnt require me to abandon all my experience (told 43 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dbezz(40): yes it does rieman dbezz(40): and..... LIKE IT! , if hannibal crossed the alps on a magic carpet, yes that would be hard to believe riemanngalois(40): if hannibal crossed the alps on a magic carpet, yes that would be hard to believe (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dbezz(40): no it wouldnt dbezz(40): carpets can fly , feryl, where do you find these websites? riemanngalois(40): feryl, where do you find these websites? (told 41 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dbezz(40): people just dont think without technology amongst by themselves with the MIND can their imagination manifest the physical universe Feryl(40): Hmmmm... Lewrockwell.com links to a lot of weird stuff. klevdav(40): u must have nothing in existence first, then u can create any and everything donpachi(40): my assumptions is there are documented cases of people and group of people travelling long distances on various animals , see, you call it "weird" , that should be a red flag theres something wrong riemanngalois(40): see, you call it "weird" , that should be a red flag theres something wrong (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dbezz(40): TRUTH IS A RULE dbezz(40): may the best dexterious observer WIN Feryl(40): Weird stuff is automatically wrong? Like the weird idea that light is a particle AND a light at the same time? , do you say weird stuff in a positive way? riemanngalois(40): do you say weird stuff in a positive way? (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , well some people use the term in a negative way, like kooky riemanngalois(40): well some people use the term in a negative way, like kooky (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PCM(40): Feryl, about that astronomy thing... Feryl(40): Yeah? PCM(40): First thing I would do is statistics. Feryl(40): Weird = unusual Feryl(40): Statistics? What kind of statistics? Bayesian? PCM(40): Find all known quasars PCM(40): Find their distances. Feryl(40): How? Feryl(40): How would you determine their distances? krell shouts: abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 1234567890-=\[];',./~!@#%^&*()_+|{}:"<>? ZYXWVUTSRQPOMNLKJIHGFEDCBA PCM(40): Assuming conventional theory is correct --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'Enz) , unconventional is better word PCM(40): Their distribution should be similar to other objects riemanngalois(40): unconventional is better word (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Ok so you attempt to disprove conventional theory by first assuming it's correct... go on... klevdav(40): you must have the invisable first --> krell is a tree klevdav(40): then the visable can come forth PCM(40): Well, I would also do this with Arp's system I suppose --> krell wonders where the blik went PCM(40): If they all have extreme redshift, extreme distance from us, and they are very many, something is very fishy PCM(40): Cause there is no known system to make them all be far away from us Feryl(40): Ok, here's the basic argument. The redshift of the quasar puts it about 15 times further away from the earth than the galaxy... yet there's a picture of the quasar between us and the galaxy. How is that possible? PCM(40): Feryl, my approach would be easy to test without having to interpret pictures. PCM(40): I have NO idea whether these guys are talking total rubbish in that regard. Feryl(40): So you don't feel that the picture falsifies the red shift assumption all by itself? PCM(40): The quasar could very well be "behind" the glaxy for all I know --> BabasChess(TD) is very happy to see Grand Master PTrajkovic is using BabasChess :D ! Feryl(40): If it were behind the galaxy, wouldn't the galaxy block our view? krell shouts: babas is the AOL of chess interfce --> Punkyyyy notification >donpachi,pcm have late joined the list xD PCM(40): I should think it would, yes. Then again, I can't even be sure that is a quasar --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'movealready) Feryl(40): Try reading http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/science/mcquasar.asp too PCM(40): If it is, maybe it has such brilliant light that you can still see it from behind the galaxy PCM(40): Well, it could be another crackpot site. PCM(40): You'd need to be in the field to know about these things, unless that would also brainwash you :) Feryl(40): Geoffrey Burbidge added that the fact that the quasar is so close to the center of this galaxy, only 8 arc seconds from the nucleus, and does not appear to be shrouded in any way by interstellar gas make it highly unlikely that the quasar lies far behind the galaxy, its light shining through the galaxy near its center by "an accident of projection." PCM(40): But my suggestion would be a rather simple way to approach the whole thing from a different angle in any case PCM(40): Feryl, the thing is, I never heard of Geoffrey Burbidge, for all I know you could have wrote this article 15 minutes ago. PCM(40): There are kooks in all areas, and they are usually the ones getting most attention from media --> callipygian(C) seeks a game or three --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'callipygian) --> TheElffud sits quietly, in Northern California, BlitzThree(40): riemann, the dead will rise when Jesus returns for His people , feryl, if the big bang is disproven, then what is left? riemanngalois(40): feryl, if the big bang is disproven, then what is left? (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. , b3, apparently elvis rose from the dead riemanngalois(40): b3, apparently elvis rose from the dead (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , he's been sighted riemanngalois(40): he's been sighted (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): you're welcome to your beliefs --> Punkyyyy observes elfudd , b3, its not a belief. its eye witness testimony riemanngalois(40): b3, its not a belief. its eye witness testimony (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): my beliefs are based on the Bible , same as in your new testament riemanngalois(40): same as in your new testament (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") krell shouts: abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 1234567890-=\[];',./~!@#%^&*()_+|{}:"<>? ZYXWVUTSRQPOMNLKJIHGFEDCBA , well this is better. you can interview the Elvis sighting people yourself riemanngalois(40): well this is better. you can interview the Elvis sighting people yourself (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): do you really believe that? , do i believe it? no. riemanngalois(40): do i believe it? no. (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , but im being more consistent than you are riemanngalois(40): but im being more consistent than you are (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): why don't you say what you really believe? , you take seriously the bible claims of Jesus sightings (after he died). but you dismiss Elvis sightings riemanngalois(40): you take seriously the bible claims of Jesus sightings (after he died). but you dismiss Elvis sightings (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): I believe the Word of God not the word of humans , im making a point here riemanngalois(40): im making a point here (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , yes, but humans wrote the bible riemanngalois(40): yes, but humans wrote the bible (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , feryl, you still around? riemanngalois(40): feryl, you still around? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Yes BlitzThree(40): humans who were inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible Feryl(40): What's up? , b3, you dismiss the sightings of Elvis , but on what basis do you do this? its inconsistent . since you take seriously eyewitness testimony of Jesus sightings. this is exactly alike riemanngalois(40): b3, you dismiss the sightings of Elvis , but on what basis do you do this? its inconsistent . since you take seriously eyewitness testimony of Jesus sightings. this is exactly alike (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): humans who were inspired by the Holy Spirit compiled the books of the Bible , feryl, if the big bang is disproven, then what is left? riemanngalois(40): feryl, if the big bang is disproven, then what is left? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , universe existed forever? riemanngalois(40): universe existed forever? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Electric universe? Yeah... universe has always existed. , hmmmm riemanngalois(40): hmmmm (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): riemann, do Elvis followers write in the Bible? Feryl(40): I don't think there's a basis for claiming universe creation. No offense to B3 **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 4th Calgary International Chess Classic 2011 - Round 6 and the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" , as an atheist, universe always existing appeals to me , naturally riemanngalois(40): as an atheist, universe always existing appeals to me , naturally (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , whats an electric universe? riemanngalois(40): whats an electric universe? (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Of course the always existing universe theory has its questions ... like why hasn't the universe already encountered a heat death... equal entropy everywhere and no chemical reactions taking place. , b3, im talking about eyewitness testimony, which is the basis of your belief in jesus, is it not? riemanngalois(40): b3, im talking about eyewitness testimony, which is the basis of your belief in jesus, is it not? (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") klevdav(40): Occum will return to cleanse all the germz! Feryl(40): The electric universe theory claims that the universe is powered by electricity not by fusion. , feryl, there is the oscilation universe theory, big crunch before big bang riemanngalois(40): feryl, there is the oscilation universe theory, big crunch before big bang (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): That gravity's role is overemphasized since electrical forces are 10^39 times more powerful. , electricity? you mean the sun's energy is electricity drawn? riemanngalois(40): electricity? you mean the sun's energy is electricity drawn? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> MAd > (ics-auto-salutes 'jclanton) Feryl(40): They claim that black holes cannot occur... Feryl(40): Right. They point to the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface of the sun as proof that the sun is powered electrically... and the existence of bikeland currents in the sun's corona as signs of electrical activity. Tsvetkov(40): only white holes BlitzThree(40): riemann, you only have half the requirement for Scripture. the other half is that it has to be accepted by those who have the Holy Spirit BlitzThree(40): riemann, do Elvis followers write in the Bible? , b3, im trying to distinguish this riemanngalois(40): b3, im trying to distinguish this (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): They also point to the solar neutrino problem... the sun should have more neutrinos if it is fusion powered --> RJJ HAR HAR HAR ! ! ! , some of them are christian riemanngalois(40): some of them are christian (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , how do you "write in the bible" riemanngalois(40): how do you "write in the bible" (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Feryl(40): Although recently some studies have claimed to overcome the nutrino deficit problem using new mathematical models. , how do we detect neutrinos? riemanngalois(40): how do we detect neutrinos? (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , dont they decay rapidly? riemanngalois(40): dont they decay rapidly? (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): riemann, have Elvis followers writing been accepted to include in the Bible? Feryl(40): Deep underground they have deuterium water that detects them somehow... Feryl(40): Not clear on the details. Notification: VAmendola has arrived. , b3, not that i know of. but you could, if you made another council riemanngalois(40): b3, not that i know of. but you could, if you made another council (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , council of elvis followers riemanngalois(40): council of elvis followers (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): until they do they're not accepted as Gospel , b3, so you want the body of followers to accept their writings? riemanngalois(40): b3, so you want the body of followers to accept their writings? (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , but today the body is split riemanngalois(40): but today the body is split (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , into various threads riemanngalois(40): into various threads (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): look at how the canon of Scripture was formed Feryl tells you: http://www.electric-cosmos.org/sudbury.htm , gospel of thomas was removed riemanngalois(40): gospel of thomas was removed (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): what is necessary to be included in thre Bible? , feryl, you seem drawn to unconventional theories riemanngalois(40): feryl, you seem drawn to unconventional theories (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): the gospel of thomas was never in the Bible , b3, human agreement riemanngalois(40): b3, human agreement (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") PCM(40): Feryl, how did you get from inherent+normal redshift to no normal redshift ? BlitzThree(40): humans who are led by the Holy Spirit , b3, i mean the new testament. like how you got the new testament riemanngalois(40): b3, i mean the new testament. like how you got the new testament (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , it didnt start as the new testament, riemanngalois(40): it didnt start as the new testament, (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): we started with the letters of Paul , b3, well, that would mean you have to have faith that other humans are led by the spirit. but how would you know? riemanngalois(40): b3, well, that would mean you have to have faith that other humans are led by the spirit. but how would you know? (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): the apostle Peter said the letters of Paul are Scripture dominospizza(40): YOU have to do something about it, rieman , so basically one guy in the club vouches for the other guy in the club riemanngalois(40): so basically one guy in the club vouches for the other guy in the club (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , or cult riemanngalois(40): or cult (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): Peter spoke by the Holy Spirit BlitzThree(40): ok? , b3, i cant accept that. riemanngalois(40): b3, i cant accept that. (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , i mean, thats your faith . but its like an Elvis sighting to me riemanngalois(40): i mean, thats your faith . but its like an Elvis sighting to me (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Ptr(40): Elvis also spoke by the holy spirit BlitzThree(40): Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on the disciples , well some people believe that Elvis is the king riemanngalois(40): well some people believe that Elvis is the king (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): I'm telling you what the Bible says , b3, ok riemanngalois(40): b3, ok (told 34 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): not merely my opinion , b3, so i am an outsider, looking in. i dont get it riemanngalois(40): b3, so i am an outsider, looking in. i dont get it (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , i can only get it as in 'insider' riemanngalois(40): i can only get it as in 'insider' (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , ie, having faith, etc riemanngalois(40): ie, having faith, etc (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): apostolic succession is from one bishop to another by the laying on of hands dominospizza(40): you can't know sugar is sweet, riemann , whos the bishop today? riemanngalois(40): whos the bishop today? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Conspicuous(40): oh the dogma is dripping like molasses! BlitzThree(40): there are many bishops , does he wear a funny hat? riemanngalois(40): does he wear a funny hat? (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , b3, i thought you werent catholic though riemanngalois(40): b3, i thought you werent catholic though (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") BlitzThree(40): Protestant churches have bishops too , domino, unless i tried it? riemanngalois(40): domino, unless i tried it? (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , so the first protestant bishop has to find a catholic bishop to lay hands on him, or the succession is broken riemanngalois(40): so the first protestant bishop has to find a catholic bishop to lay hands on him, or the succession is broken (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dominospizza(40): you must do the action BlitzThree(40): Protestants branched off from the Roman catholic church , ok guys ... im beat. ive been up all night refining my statements. riemanngalois(40): ok guys ... im beat. ive been up all night refining my statements. (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dominospizza(40): what are YOU going to do to know this unknown? hazepawn shouts: I'm trying to solve a debate who is the greatest chess player ever? , domino, what am i going to do about Elvis sightings? riemanngalois(40): domino, what am i going to do about Elvis sightings? (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Chlewicki shouts: it's Kasparow , its the same question, just as valid riemanngalois(40): its the same question, just as valid (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") krell shouts: krell is here, let the massive inanity begin! dominospizza(40): it is YOU who must do something about it , i can search for elvis, or do nothing and continue my life . i suspect there will be no difference either way riemanngalois(40): i can search for elvis, or do nothing and continue my life . i suspect there will be no difference either way (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dominospizza(40): Noone can do this job for you , what about alien abductions, roswell? riemanngalois(40): what about alien abductions, roswell? (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> Libertie hi' BlitzThree(40): so the first protestant bishop was probably a Roman catholic bishop dominospizza(40): no free lunch , demonio, are you a christian riemanngalois(40): demonio, are you a christian (told 35 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") VAmendola(40): Hello Riemann, have you extracted the truth out of the non-unbelievers yet? dominospizza(40): would it matter if I was or Not? , vamen, im trying to defend my skepticism riemanngalois(40): vamen, im trying to defend my skepticism (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , i said, its just as valid to worry about elvis sightings as the Jesus sightings riemanngalois(40): i said, its just as valid to worry about elvis sightings as the Jesus sightings (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") , or be vexed by riemanngalois(40): or be vexed by (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Tsvetkov(40): the alien abductions where they remove your brain and replace it with a chip with the bible on it are the worst dominospizza(40): I am telling you from my understanding on this VAmendola(40): Ok krell shouts: something vaguely offensive dominospizza(40): anything is valid--- YOU find out dominospizza(40): YOU are in charge. , i am not vexed by elvis sightings, nor am i vexed by Jesus claims of sightings riemanngalois(40): i am not vexed by elvis sightings, nor am i vexed by Jesus claims of sightings (told 36 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") hazepawn shouts: resarch shows that kasparov is not better then lasker dominospizza(40): YOU can't find out by arguing daily in 40 , alien roswell sightings riemanngalois(40): alien roswell sightings (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Introspection(40): Why? that way you don't have t spend countless hours memorising hte Bible :-p , domino, ive alraedy accepted jesus, did the whole faith thing riemanngalois(40): domino, ive alraedy accepted jesus, did the whole faith thing (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Ifrit shouts: research shows that kasparov did not live to see Laserk. dominospizza(40): if you accepted, means you must follow his words , i missed out on a lot of retrice, maybe i got saved from an STD riemanngalois(40): i missed out on a lot of retrice, maybe i got saved from an STD (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") krell shouts: google search shows blik has left the building , thats about it riemanngalois(40): thats about it (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dominospizza(40): is that accurate, B3? he must follow AndreD shouts: research shows that Napoleon is not better then Attila The Hun Ifrit shouts: left the building? Or raptured? , thats not falsifiable. because you cannot test the lord riemanngalois(40): thats not falsifiable. because you cannot test the lord (told 37 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") VAmendola(40): Avoiding STDs provides more time in order to acquire an STD , suppose i said, i will test this hypothesis, i will believe in jesus, etc. but one cannot test the lord riemanngalois(40): suppose i said, i will test this hypothesis, i will believe in jesus, etc. but one cannot test the lord (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dominospizza(40): this is NOT science PCM shouts: Research shows that PCM is making shouts about what research shows krell shouts: napollion was short and Atilla fought dirty..nap would be OWNED in a fight , i will believe in jesus in order to see evidence that jesus does exist riemanngalois(40): i will believe in jesus in order to see evidence that jesus does exist (told 42 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dominospizza(40): you don't base this on observations VAmendola(40): well said, infact it is condemned to test the lord dominospizza(40): that is not enough, riemann. you must actually follow his words , but nobody seriously has "faith" in something in order to believe it exists. it would be silly riemanngalois(40): but nobody seriously has "faith" in something in order to believe it exists. it would be silly (told 40 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") --> PCM thinks napoleon's artillery would make meat loaf out of attilla's cavalry MoosMutz(*)(SR)(TM) shouts: Napolean would never fight himsel, he had armies , yeah that didnt work either , i tried everything riemanngalois(40): yeah that didnt work either , i tried everything (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") Ptr(40): you base it on the fact it is written in the bible krell shouts: napoleon shook his..oh never mind dominospizza(40): how would we know sugar is sweet? **ANNOUNCEMENT** from relay: FICS is relaying the 4th Calgary International Chess Classic 2011 - Round 6 and the 1st International Open "Alimini Village" 2011 - Round 2. To find more about Relay type "tell relay help" , but i have Elvis sightings i need to take seriously as well riemanngalois(40): but i have Elvis sightings i need to take seriously as well (told 38 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dominospizza(40): please do Jonfern shouts: hiya! here again! eZseven(40): "testing the lord" refers to putting Him to an unneccessary test, in order for Him to "prove" Himself , basically i have a bunch of competing claims, and i dont want to place bias for any of them riemanngalois(40): basically i have a bunch of competing claims, and i dont want to place bias for any of them (told 39 players in channel 40 "Religious_Discussions") dominospizza(40): see ya . must go VAmendola(40): People want to believe. If God is not real then the faithful are simply placing all their paranoias under one label PCM(40): People wanting to believe does not prove anything though WARNING: Disconnected

155. anonymous

the 4 solutions are (0, -2-(2/3)*sqrt(15) ), (0, -2+(2/3)*sqrt(15) ) ( -4+2*sqrt(3), 0) , ( -4-2*sqrt(3), 0)