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1234portion

  • 3 years ago

the Haulting question: say there was a computer program, decide whether the program finishes running or runs forever!?!?!

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  1. dumbcow
    • 3 years ago
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    i dunno what program is it running? most programs would finish running but if it was stuck in a loop and had a infinite power source then who knows... :)

  2. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    dumb cow, if you dont mind me asking what are your credentials???

  3. dumbcow
    • 3 years ago
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    haha i have 1000 medals

  4. zbay
    • 3 years ago
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    haha

  5. Thomas9
    • 3 years ago
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    The halting problem is about a program that has as input a different program and gives as output whether or not it stops. Apparently it doesn't exist.

  6. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    um... do you have a formal educational back groud, dumb cow?

  7. dumbcow
    • 3 years ago
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    are you really a student?

  8. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    thomas 9, that was an interesting responce

  9. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    but consider the sketch of proof

  10. Owlfred
    • 3 years ago
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    1234 what type of credentials are you looking for?

  11. Thomas9
    • 3 years ago
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    The proof was something with using the initial program as input, but I forgot most of it.

  12. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    My OS is supposed to run forever, doesn't though.

  13. Thomas9
    • 3 years ago
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    lol

  14. Zarkon
    • 3 years ago
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    I have a Ph.D. Galactic Domination(see profile). How's that?

  15. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    the proof shows there is no total computable function that decides whether an arbitrary program i halts on arbitrary input x: that is, the function h is not computable

  16. dumbcow
    • 3 years ago
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    galactic domination...!!?? interesting...

  17. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    thomas 9

  18. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    Not algorithmically decidable.

  19. Thomas9
    • 3 years ago
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    yes?

  20. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    h(i,x)={1if program i halts on inputx, 0 otherwise

  21. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    Not recursive.

  22. Zarkon
    • 3 years ago
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    yes...I looked at many universities, but Planet Doom University had the program that i really wanted. Great profeessors

  23. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    are you serious Zarkon?

  24. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    i have not heard from you thomas 9?

  25. myininaya
    • 3 years ago
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    galactic domination! i want that degree

  26. myininaya
    • 3 years ago
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    sounds hot and spicy

  27. Ishaan94
    • 3 years ago
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    Can I apply for Planet Doom University ?

  28. Zarkon
    • 3 years ago
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    yes...the degree is in high demand

  29. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    estudier what do you think?

  30. Zarkon
    • 3 years ago
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    you can...but the off planet tuition is a killer

  31. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    U have my opinion already.

  32. myininaya
    • 3 years ago
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    what kindof question is this, 1234?

  33. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    well what about my sketch of proof?

  34. Ishaan94
    • 3 years ago
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    http://www.google.co.in/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Planet+Doom+University

  35. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    Where is it?

  36. Thomas9
    • 3 years ago
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    the proof he means not the university of doom.

  37. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    i am going to copy and repost my earlier responce

  38. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    the proof shows there is no total computable function that decides whether an arbitrary program i halts on arbitrary input x: that is, the function h is not computable

  39. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    The proof sketch, not PDUni.

  40. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    1234portion -- I didn't see a sketch of a proof. You stated the problem correctly, however.

  41. Zarkon
    • 3 years ago
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    it is not the university of doom...that place it just a diploma mill. Planet Doom University is where I went

  42. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    The proof itself, at least in the original form presented by Alan Turing, involves defining what a computer is and describing how it runs a program (the then-named Turing machine is the machine that Turing posited for this). I believe you can also prove the same thing using the lambda calculus.

  43. Owlfred
    • 3 years ago
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    1234 Portion, is this your first day on the site?

  44. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    h(i,x)={1if program i halts on inputx, 0 otherwise here program i refers to the i program in an enumeratio of all the programs of a fixed turing complete model of computation.

  45. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    that was for you e studier

  46. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    yes to your question owlfred

  47. Owlfred
    • 3 years ago
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    okay cool, how did you find us?

  48. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    browsing... who are you exactly mr.owl?

  49. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    with the utmost respect of course

  50. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    ...

  51. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    Heh. He's the OpenStudy mascot/moderator in chief.

  52. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    and who are you exactly??

  53. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    The Chief Software Engineer at OpenStudy.

  54. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    cool

  55. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    maby you can answer my question?

  56. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    Asked and answered.

  57. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    I'm not sure what exactly your question is :) Do you want a full proof for the undecidability of the halting problem?

  58. Owlfred
    • 3 years ago
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    Haha, yeah sorry. I'm a moderator on OpenStudy.

  59. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    well thank you for your input e studier

  60. myininaya
    • 3 years ago
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    i say let the computer program run forever

  61. myininaya
    • 3 years ago
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    lol

  62. imranmeah91
    • 3 years ago
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    lol @ myin

  63. myininaya
    • 3 years ago
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    and let the machines take over

  64. Zarkon
    • 3 years ago
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    10 print "hello" 20 goto 10 what about this

  65. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    Q "decide whether" A algorithmically undecidable.

  66. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    The question of the halting problem is for the general case. Given an arbitrary program, decide whether the program will end or not. It is impossible to write a program that will answer this question every time. It *is* possible to write a program that will answer this question sometimes.

  67. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    estudier you can try to single out possible values for a total computable function, if you have all the variables and an algorithm in place, cant you???

  68. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    shadow friend that is very intriguing, elaborate!

  69. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    Not sure what you're asking. Can you give an example?

  70. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    just explain more in detail about you response shadow friend, and like i said to estudieryou can try to single out possible values for a total computable function, if you have all the variables and an algorithm in place, cant you???

  71. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    A more interesting question is quantifying undecidability, or complexity in general.

  72. satellite73
    • 3 years ago
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    i am not sure my computer can even run as long as this thread

  73. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    e studier do you know of any powerful computer programs that postulate very complex and abstract mathematical information?

  74. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    and if you dont mind me asking what are your credentials ??? estudier?

  75. satellite73
    • 3 years ago
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    satelllite md phd psyd do dsw dch university of the galaxy (online)

  76. imranmeah91
    • 3 years ago
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    how many were bought online

  77. satellite73
    • 3 years ago
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    i got them for free well i did have to buy the candy bars

  78. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    what is up with you satellite73???

  79. Zarkon
    • 3 years ago
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    lol

  80. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    i dont find this funny

  81. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    what ever happened to shadow friend?

  82. Zarkon
    • 3 years ago
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    University of the Galaxy ...oooohhh...very prestigious!!

  83. satellite73
    • 3 years ago
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    yeah we used to kick your butts in lacrosse too !

  84. Zarkon
    • 3 years ago
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    yeah...we suck. :(

  85. satellite73
    • 3 years ago
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    girls team did anyway

  86. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    All right, all right, stay on topic. If you want to talk about the University of the Galaxy, go do it in chat.

  87. satellite73
    • 3 years ago
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    was there a topic or just a credential check?

  88. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    Heh. Ignore the credential check ;) The topic at hand is the halting problem.

  89. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    As for my response, I'm just saying that the question of the halting problem is for the general case of any program. You can write a program that recognizes common patterns of programs that halt or don't. You can also decide the halting problem if you're not talking about a general purpose (or Turing-complete) programming language.

  90. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    i understand shadowfriend, however i like to know people educational back ground so i know how capable they are in math, but with that been said, why arent satellit73 talking about my problem, he or she i talking about some space university!

  91. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    it makes no sense !

  92. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    We judge here by deeds not words...

  93. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    come again e studier???

  94. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    where did that come from?

  95. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    That is my response to your persistent credential checks, has anyone asked for yours?

  96. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    we should not judge period, who are we to do so?

  97. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    you said we judge by deeds

  98. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    Correct, then the credential checks serve no useful purpose...

  99. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    Credentials are de-emphasized on OpenStudy in favor of the community's esteem. Those who want to share them post their school and additional information in their profile.

  100. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    keep in mind i am not being disrespectful, i alway say " if you dont mind me asking, what are your credentals" keep in mind i say " if you dont mind" in a case were people do mind they just dont have to answer!

  101. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    no pressure

  102. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    Well, doubtless u noticed that people didn't respond..?

  103. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    I think this particular discussion has run its course.

  104. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    i can see now, sorry for hurting "the communities esteem"

  105. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    back to my question

  106. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    It's all good :)

  107. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    estudier you seem to be just about the most knowledgeable person here

  108. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    no offence intended to anyone

  109. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    i thought your answer was pretty good

  110. estudier
    • 3 years ago
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    I know a little, so do others, together we know a lot...

  111. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    anyone else want to give it a shot?

  112. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    to my question!

  113. zbay
    • 3 years ago
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    Is this just a theory based question? are you trying to disprove, or prove that this type of program works?

  114. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    You may also want to try asking in the computer science group at http://openstudy.com/groups/computer+science . Might get some interesting answers there (though not necessarily as fast as here).

  115. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    thank shadowfriend, and to answer your question z bay, i want to see some ones approach on an algorithm or thought analyses, that is also why i am interested in credentials!

  116. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    ok

  117. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    ...

  118. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    thanks for you help...i guess?

  119. zbay
    • 3 years ago
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    if you made a program that tested every x value of a function that goes to infinity you would have a never ending program

  120. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    interesting, how did you conclude that zbay?

  121. shadowfiend
    • 3 years ago
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    Unless you developed a computer that could execute infinite operations in finite time, pretty much by definition it wouldn't end.

  122. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    the difficulty with the halting problem lies in the requirement that the decision procedure must work for all programs and inputs.

  123. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    by the way shadow friend, obviously you are knowledgeable about this website, how can i ask about question having to do with finance, i cant seem to get there through this website!

  124. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    ?

  125. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    any one?

  126. zbay
    • 3 years ago
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    whats the finance question?

  127. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    ok

  128. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    not to annoy anyone, but zbay would it be too mucn to ask for credentials pertaining to finance??

  129. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    i want to know if you can answer a few accounting questions

  130. zbay
    • 3 years ago
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    i took accounting 1 and didn't like it but i will see if i can remember any of it

  131. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    cool, and thank you very much by the way, ok here it goes!

  132. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    how can one apply the accounting equation effectively towards a government agency's finances?

  133. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    z bay?

  134. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    i only know how to apply the accounting equation to a business entity

  135. zbay
    • 3 years ago
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    you got me

  136. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    oh its ok

  137. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    i like that you tried

  138. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    but i thought there was a finance part to this website, how do i get there?

  139. zbay
    • 3 years ago
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    you can use a basic credit debit system depending on the sizze of the agency would determine the complexity of your accounting system you would have to have all thing equal and you should be good

  140. zbay
    • 3 years ago
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    if you hit the home button at the top you can go to the other groups

  141. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    cool, however unlike a business entity, a gov agency does not receive revenue from a service, so in that case how do you then account for revenue for a gov agency?

  142. zbay
    • 3 years ago
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    well while a gov agency isn't a money making operation they still get funding by other gov agencys so this funding still needs to be accounted for. this would only change the name of the account it wouldn't change the basic process of the accounting process

  143. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    oh!!!!

  144. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    does that also mean gov agencies can not result in a net loss?

  145. zbay
    • 3 years ago
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    in theory you can't spend more money than you have but this doesn't apply to the goverment seeing as they can print more. so while i wouldn't call it a net loss we would call it a deficit.

  146. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    makes scense

  147. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    i think i am well equipped with knowledge from accounting, even thoughits from a business perspective, can i use that same knowledge to effectively do the accounting for a gov agency?

  148. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    ???

  149. zbay
    • 3 years ago
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    Yea you can use the accounting process for the gov but your going to have a few problems. they spend lots of money and employ lots of people so your numbers are goign to be huge and collecting the data needed to account for all the money spent is going to be a pain also.

  150. 1234portion
    • 3 years ago
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    ok thank you very much for your insight i must leave no bye, and again thanks!

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