A community for students.
Here's the question you clicked on:
 0 viewing
KingGeorge
 2 years ago
Group Theory Challenge Problem!
Let \(S_n\) be the group of permutations on \(\{1,2,...,n\}\), and let two players play a game. Taking turns, the two players select elements one at a time from \(S_n\). Players may only select elements that have not already been selected. The game ends when the set of selected elements generate \(S_n\). The player who made the last move loses. Who wins the game?
[HINT: Think of this problem in terms of the largest possible set of elements you can have so that you don't generate the whole group.]
[HINT 2: What are the orders of the maximal subgroups?]
KingGeorge
 2 years ago
Group Theory Challenge Problem! Let \(S_n\) be the group of permutations on \(\{1,2,...,n\}\), and let two players play a game. Taking turns, the two players select elements one at a time from \(S_n\). Players may only select elements that have not already been selected. The game ends when the set of selected elements generate \(S_n\). The player who made the last move loses. Who wins the game? [HINT: Think of this problem in terms of the largest possible set of elements you can have so that you don't generate the whole group.] [HINT 2: What are the orders of the maximal subgroups?]

This Question is Open

KingGeorge
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2This was a problem of the month offered by my undergraduate department where I was able to come up with the correct solution.

zzr0ck3r
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.0I post an easier group theory problem and only @KingGeorge looks, @KingGeorge posts one and you all are like flies....

zepdrix
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.0If \(\large n\) is even, the player to select first would win. If \(\large n\) is odd, the player to select first would lose. Do I have the right idea?? D: No it's probably more math'y than that...

KingGeorge
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2Definitely more mathy than that. Although that was also one of my first ideas when given this question.

dan815
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2the player who made the 2nd last move

KingGeorge
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2Well, duh. But is that player the first or the second to have originally chosen?

swissgirl
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.0Ummm can they remove more than one element at a time?

dan815
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2its the player that goes 2nd who wins

KingGeorge
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2Only one at a time @swissgirl Show me a proof @dan815

KingGeorge
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2Well, I'm off to bed. I'll leave you with the very vague hint, that while @zepdrix's idea is not the correct solution, you do need to keep even/odd in mind.

dan815
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2sooo the first one loses!

dan815
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2so all even but +1 elements from s1=1 will give u an odd number of elements in total

KingGeorge
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2I honestly have no idea what you're trying to do here.

dan815
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2well i m just kinda guessing what set of permutations are xD does that mean for each permutation say for 3, there are 3! elements in there

dan815
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2if it was like that in that case I said there are an even number of permutations in all but 1 element which is the 1! element so there will always be an odd number of elements in this set therefore the first one to Go, will always pick the first and last element

dan815
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2it cant be that easy so.. i probably dont understand what a group of permutations mean xD

KingGeorge
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2Hint: Think of this problem in terms of the largest possible set of elements you can have so that you don't generate the whole group.

KingGeorge
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2Hint 2: What are the orders of the maximal subgroups?

alexandercpark
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.0Would the size of s_n be nCn?

KingGeorge
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2The size of \(S_n\) is \(n!\).

alexandercpark
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.0forgive my lack of talent in the equation editor :( because the size of s_n is n!, the ONLY time that the size of s_n is odd is when s_n is the emty set, or the set {1} any set beyond that would be even, because you have (integers) * 2. so, the winner depends on the origanl size of s_n, if n = 0 or 1, the first player to go will lose. if n > 1, the second player to go will lose.

KingGeorge
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2There are some additional considerations you have to take in mind since this is a group. If you aren't familiar with some group theory, this problem is going to give you a tough time.

domu
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.0The set of n1 elements \[\left\{ (j,j+1) \left \right 1 \le j < n \right\}\] form a generating set. Thus, for n odd, the first player losses and for n even the second player losses. I believe this is correct but I still need to show that a set of n2 elements does not generate the whole group. Thought? Counterexamples?

KingGeorge
 2 years ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2That is not correct. For example, if n=3, then I will choose \((123)\). Then, in order not to lose, second player must choose either \(e\) or \((132)\). I then choose the one second player didn't choose. Then whatever second player chooses next, he loses. So I win as first player.

KingGeorge
 one year ago
Best ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2Since this seems to have died, I'll be posting the solution here. For \(n=2,3\) player 1 wins. For any other \(n\ge1\), player 2 wins. It should be straightforward to see why this is the case for \(n=1,2,3\). Now suppose \(n\ge4\). First, I will prove that any maximal subgroup of \(S_n\) has even order. Note that any subgroup \(H\) of \(S_n\) that has odd order must have only elements of odd order as well. Let \(w\) be such an element. Then consider the unique cycledecomposition of \(w\). Since \(w\) is odd, all the cycles must also have odd order. But if a cycle has odd order, then it must be contained in the alternating subgroup \(A_n\). Thus, \(w\in A_n\), and \(H\subsetneq A_n\). So \(H\) is not maximal. Thus, any maximal subgroup has even order. Now suppose \(2k\) elements have been chosen from \(S_n\) for some \(k\in\mathbb{Z}_{\ge0}\) so it is player 1's turn. We have two cases. Case 1: Player 1 chooses so that the game ends. Then player 2 wins. Case 2: Player 1 chooses so that the game does not end. Then \(2k+1\) elements have been chosen. But since every maximal subgroup has even order, this set of elements must be properly contained in some maximal subgroup. So there is at least one more element \(g\) in that subgroup that has not been chosen. Player 2 may choose \(g\), and thus does not end the game. We now have chosen \(2(k+1)\) elements. Since there are a finite number of elements, we are done by induction.
Ask your own question
Sign UpFind more explanations on OpenStudy
Your question is ready. Sign up for free to start getting answers.
spraguer
(Moderator)
5
→ View Detailed Profile
is replying to Can someone tell me what button the professor is hitting...
23
 Teamwork 19 Teammate
 Problem Solving 19 Hero
 Engagement 19 Mad Hatter
 You have blocked this person.
 ✔ You're a fan Checking fan status...
Thanks for being so helpful in mathematics. If you are getting quality help, make sure you spread the word about OpenStudy.