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KingGeorge
Group Title
Group Theory Challenge Problem!
Let \(S_n\) be the group of permutations on \(\{1,2,...,n\}\), and let two players play a game. Taking turns, the two players select elements one at a time from \(S_n\). Players may only select elements that have not already been selected. The game ends when the set of selected elements generate \(S_n\). The player who made the last move loses. Who wins the game?
[HINT: Think of this problem in terms of the largest possible set of elements you can have so that you don't generate the whole group.]
[HINT 2: What are the orders of the maximal subgroups?]
 one year ago
 one year ago
KingGeorge Group Title
Group Theory Challenge Problem! Let \(S_n\) be the group of permutations on \(\{1,2,...,n\}\), and let two players play a game. Taking turns, the two players select elements one at a time from \(S_n\). Players may only select elements that have not already been selected. The game ends when the set of selected elements generate \(S_n\). The player who made the last move loses. Who wins the game? [HINT: Think of this problem in terms of the largest possible set of elements you can have so that you don't generate the whole group.] [HINT 2: What are the orders of the maximal subgroups?]
 one year ago
 one year ago

This Question is Open

KingGeorge Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
This was a problem of the month offered by my undergraduate department where I was able to come up with the correct solution.
 one year ago

zzr0ck3r Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.0
I post an easier group theory problem and only @KingGeorge looks, @KingGeorge posts one and you all are like flies....
 one year ago

zzr0ck3r Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.0
im playing:)
 one year ago

zepdrix Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.0
If \(\large n\) is even, the player to select first would win. If \(\large n\) is odd, the player to select first would lose. Do I have the right idea?? D: No it's probably more math'y than that...
 one year ago

KingGeorge Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
Definitely more mathy than that. Although that was also one of my first ideas when given this question.
 one year ago

dan815 Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
the player who made the 2nd last move
 one year ago

KingGeorge Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
Well, duh. But is that player the first or the second to have originally chosen?
 one year ago

swissgirl Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.0
Ummm can they remove more than one element at a time?
 one year ago

dan815 Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
its the player that goes 2nd who wins
 one year ago

KingGeorge Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
Only one at a time @swissgirl Show me a proof @dan815
 one year ago

KingGeorge Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
Well, I'm off to bed. I'll leave you with the very vague hint, that while @zepdrix's idea is not the correct solution, you do need to keep even/odd in mind.
 one year ago

dan815 Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
dw:1370241063380:dw
 one year ago

dan815 Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
dw:1370241133384:dw
 one year ago

dan815 Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
sooo the first one loses!
 one year ago

dan815 Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
dw:1370241271520:dw
 one year ago

dan815 Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
so all even but +1 elements from s1=1 will give u an odd number of elements in total
 one year ago

KingGeorge Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to do here.
 one year ago

dan815 Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
well i m just kinda guessing what set of permutations are xD does that mean for each permutation say for 3, there are 3! elements in there
 one year ago

dan815 Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
if it was like that in that case I said there are an even number of permutations in all but 1 element which is the 1! element so there will always be an odd number of elements in this set therefore the first one to Go, will always pick the first and last element
 one year ago

dan815 Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
it cant be that easy so.. i probably dont understand what a group of permutations mean xD
 one year ago

KingGeorge Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
Hint: Think of this problem in terms of the largest possible set of elements you can have so that you don't generate the whole group.
 one year ago

KingGeorge Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
Hint 2: What are the orders of the maximal subgroups?
 one year ago

alexandercpark Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.0
Would the size of s_n be nCn?
 one year ago

KingGeorge Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
The size of \(S_n\) is \(n!\).
 one year ago

alexandercpark Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.0
forgive my lack of talent in the equation editor :( because the size of s_n is n!, the ONLY time that the size of s_n is odd is when s_n is the emty set, or the set {1} any set beyond that would be even, because you have (integers) * 2. so, the winner depends on the origanl size of s_n, if n = 0 or 1, the first player to go will lose. if n > 1, the second player to go will lose.
 one year ago

KingGeorge Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
There are some additional considerations you have to take in mind since this is a group. If you aren't familiar with some group theory, this problem is going to give you a tough time.
 one year ago

domu Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.0
The set of n1 elements \[\left\{ (j,j+1) \left \right 1 \le j < n \right\}\] form a generating set. Thus, for n odd, the first player losses and for n even the second player losses. I believe this is correct but I still need to show that a set of n2 elements does not generate the whole group. Thought? Counterexamples?
 one year ago

KingGeorge Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
That is not correct. For example, if n=3, then I will choose \((123)\). Then, in order not to lose, second player must choose either \(e\) or \((132)\). I then choose the one second player didn't choose. Then whatever second player chooses next, he loses. So I win as first player.
 one year ago

KingGeorge Group TitleBest ResponseYou've already chosen the best response.2
Since this seems to have died, I'll be posting the solution here. For \(n=2,3\) player 1 wins. For any other \(n\ge1\), player 2 wins. It should be straightforward to see why this is the case for \(n=1,2,3\). Now suppose \(n\ge4\). First, I will prove that any maximal subgroup of \(S_n\) has even order. Note that any subgroup \(H\) of \(S_n\) that has odd order must have only elements of odd order as well. Let \(w\) be such an element. Then consider the unique cycledecomposition of \(w\). Since \(w\) is odd, all the cycles must also have odd order. But if a cycle has odd order, then it must be contained in the alternating subgroup \(A_n\). Thus, \(w\in A_n\), and \(H\subsetneq A_n\). So \(H\) is not maximal. Thus, any maximal subgroup has even order. Now suppose \(2k\) elements have been chosen from \(S_n\) for some \(k\in\mathbb{Z}_{\ge0}\) so it is player 1's turn. We have two cases. Case 1: Player 1 chooses so that the game ends. Then player 2 wins. Case 2: Player 1 chooses so that the game does not end. Then \(2k+1\) elements have been chosen. But since every maximal subgroup has even order, this set of elements must be properly contained in some maximal subgroup. So there is at least one more element \(g\) in that subgroup that has not been chosen. Player 2 may choose \(g\), and thus does not end the game. We now have chosen \(2(k+1)\) elements. Since there are a finite number of elements, we are done by induction.
 11 months ago
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