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HTML/CSS are all client side, ao are you asking for the server side or client side?
Anyways "core" I would guess means the server side, and so the server is made in Scala (Primary) MongoDB, and a couple more, back me up on this @thomaster I kinda forgot xD
The reason I'm asking this is that my school wants to implement something like openstudy for teacher-students aid or student-student mutual aid. Since openstudy has been around for quite a while, what's the best solution to handle server side management with today's technology?
I don't really get what you mean? What exactly are you trying to accomplish?
to make a website similar to openstudy (real time question + answer without refreshing page, level system, chat system)
You want it with all the bells and whistles or just the basic core functionality?
He just said only the questions and answering :P no smartscore or chat stuff
He said level system thom..... :P
smartscore = a level system :)
yea pretty much those 3 :P
but the real time interactive questoin + answer is the most important, that should be done above all :)
Ok so you really don't have to go the same way OS went, if it makes it any easier your school could introduce a new system made out of something more manageable (another language) and they could build a new one that is a lot simpler
That's pretty close to enough
Let me get some admins on here, @Preetha @shadowfiend
ok thanks :)
You should ask @dumbsearch2
Oh and ASP is just a framework
Oh and ruby is also a good one
Honestly the list goes on forever, you need to find a language that suits your needs and your IT's needs
Everything else is minimal.
And the main reason why PHP is disliked is for only one reason: It is not that efficient. It is still used quite a bit, because it is quite easy to learn. Facebook finds a solution by being programmed in PHP, yet being compiled to C++.
And the way that you can answer and ask questions uses the server language, it connects to the server... and the Ajax allows the data to be dynamically loaded without any page refresh. Note that I'd prefer Sockets in this case, though for a small website this could be heavy handed. And PHP could still suit your needs quite well. It only gets slow for really big sites.
Don't you have a a very basic and stripped down version of OS for emergencies? Maybe you could help him get something like that for his school.
Hmm. I made it in PHP.
Well something like that would be good for him, hos school want's a basic functioning website so that's good, and it could also be more like an intranet, you know like only local to the school so they can house the servers there, although I would like to ask, what school is it? I need to know so I can see what type of system they have, I know for my county it's all tied together with the counties servers.Like this http://www.polk-fl.net/
The county manages everything, if they go down all of Polk county schools interent goes down, that's how it works in florida, the county is the manager.
it's a private highschool in montreal, Canada, Brebeuf College. So school manages it itself :)
I knew shadowfiend would listen to the cry of distress ^,^
Haha Yes, OpenStudy also uses the Lift framework.
PHP's downside is generally not considered to be its speed, though that can contribute. It's considered to be a somewhat convoluted language that implements certain language features that make it more difficult to reason about the program in a safe way, and more difficult to create maintainable programs.
I was actually toying around the source files right when this came up xD
@shadowfiend Efficiency is a large factor I've heard. Languages like Node.js can handle stuff a lot faster
You could make something similar using Python and the Twisted framework. There are probably better abstractions layered on it at this point. Personally, I don't think there's anything out there that really holds a candle to Lift for real-time application development at the moment. The concepts that Lift uses to express real-time applications (actors in general and comet actors in particular), once you understand them, are extremely powerful and extremely simple to reason about.
Efficiency and scalability are words that get thrown around a lot without most people really understanding what they mean. At the scale that @zscdragon is talking about, the difference would likely be negligible.
Lift's concepts as opposed to Node, which is still mostly either a mishmash of callbacks or abstraction layers that hide so much from you that you don't really know for sure when you start losing messages and such.
What about Python with DJango framework? I have seen some rather astonishing applications.
I've seen some solid apps with Django, but I don't know that there's any built-in support for real-time applications.
That website I sent you is all DJango with Python on server, I have seen it myself.
Here is the source, https://github.com/reverie/yourworldoftext
@shadowfiend One thing I know is that this site is extremely slow. It's over-reliant on AJAX or similar technologies. Have you tried switching this site to some socket.io based technologies?
A valuable lesson to learn is to never assume you know the reason something is slow.
Until you actually get in the code. 90% of the time, you're wrong.
AJAX has nothing to do with slowness on OpenStudy, congestion has everything to do with it.
And all of that happens in the backend.
That's actually very much true, you can't assume
Sockets have little serious benefit over long-poll comet requests.
I can show you all those scripts running unnecessarily fetching info at selected intervals.
But AJAX does present a problem with loading unnecessary things. It does probably have a factor to do with the client side beng slow and acting up while others are fine.
On larger scale websites, sockets do have a very large impact. I've seen it.
You're seeing long-poll requests, which are cheap to set up and return zero data when there is nothing to return.
And I did get into some of the client-side code.
Question, why was scala chosen when there are so many other languges that are uch more powerful, I mean Python and JAVA are very powerful platforms.
The client side is slow due to a large number of active components that are propagating changes that force more redraws and relayouts and such than are necessary for any given set of changes. We never really got around to optimizing that aspect of things. Here's some good discussion on long polls and sockets: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/liftweb/socket/liftweb/1fa3rolbnvI/enV5CFm2Rd4J .
There are no languages that are “much more powerful” than Scala. There are some languages that approach problems differently. Scala runs on a proven platform (the Java Virtual Machine) that has had hundreds of thousands of man-hours poured into its scalability and deployment stories.
I love this guy, he teaches us so much v.v
It also provided us a ridiculously high developer productivity, and large compile-time guarantees that reduced the need for separate testing.
Ah I see
That, and Lift is in Scala. It's got some of the best abstractions and approaches to web development I've seen since I started working on the web.
Despite being a programmer, thank you for debunking some long-time myths!
He is truly a yoda of OS
I also heard a lot of people saying how inefficient PHP is speed-wise... Something I didn't want to believe, being quite a programmer of it! Thanks for debunking these rumors :-)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying PHP isn't slower than many other languages. What I'm saying is there are many situations where that *just doesn't matter*.
Hmm. I noticed that too.
But don't you think that they'res a reason why Facebook has a framework for converting the PHP code to C++? I think it's very subtle. So your point is that it would only matter on a very large website.
I would also encourage you to move outside of PHP. Not because PHP is good or bad or better or worse, but because there are few things as useful to a programmer as the ability to move between languages.
Yes. Facebook was running 13 million queries per second in their backend sometime in 2010, and they've only grown since then. Their scale is ridiculous, and there are only a handful of sites out there that ever need to scale to that level. Twitter, by the way, uses Scala in their backend.
What about a DJango + Pusher type thing?
< shrug > That's a perfectly viable opportunity.
Er… Option heh.
@uri why don't you give @shadowfiend the medal? he deserves it! ;)
NO WAY! THE LEGEND! SHADOWFIEND!!!
But I do think OS is good as is, but there are just so many option out there, not to mention that we need some SERIOUS optimizing done to make it work smoother.
I humble at the feet of all of you :l *bows*
Some browsers have source inspection. Take a look at the source and see what programming language is utilized. Maybe that will help.
Um no, that's only client side @Dean.Shyy
Lift actually leaves some traces in the client side, as well ;)
All right folks, that's it for me. Time to get back to work. Have a good one!
Yes I saw the lift files
Goodbye master *bows*
as a server language
I hope your trip back to coding planet is smooth.
BTW @shadowfiend I never knew that Twitter was done with some Scala!!
It says on the scala page. thats how I found out lol
My opinion? Don't bother. There's nothing interesting about using node.js on the server, and if you get a job that requires you to use it you'll be able to learn it fast. Pick something more challenging. Clojure, Scala, something like that.
Whats wrong about node.js? It seems to work beautifully smooth
By the way @shadowfiend Why doesnt upenstudy update their mathjax and LaTeX version so we can use the full version?
Actually more like a django interface
BTW you seem to love Java-similar languages @shadowfiend ;)
Well JAVA is very powerful, no surprise he would use it since he is very knowledgeable on the best languages xD
@shadowfiend had actually shown me on another post the Lift-part of OpenStudy, and how I could use it as an API.
@JA1 I've heard Java being criticized for it's messy syntax. Dunno if it's another rumor.
That was enough to bring me back for a second—avoid Java at all costs. It's basically the lamest language out there. In my opinion :p Others disagree ;)
It's bloated yes, but it's a good option I don't like it myself but hey, it's out there xD
Really? But I've heard that Scala and Clojure seem similar to Java...
I love how he came back after that comment xD
Node is kind of boring, presents very little that is new to web development, and uses an approach to concurrency that is fundamentally confusing instead of making it clearer (strictly speaking, it isn't concurrency, but whatever).
I vety much like DJango frame with python, It just calls me for some reason :/
Both of those run on the Java virtual machine, but that doesn't mean they're like Java. Scala shares some superficial features with Java, but is a very very different language.
The only interesting thing, in my opinion, about Node, is the ability to run certain parts of your code identically on server and client.
Scala simply runs in the same environment as JAVA
Now I'm really out. Don't provoke me again :p
Thats why I was interesting shadow, though maybe I shouldn't try to adopt a language which I already know a lot of, and maybe I should just start something entirely different :)
Thank you @shadowfiend
Okay *stops all JAVA appraisal*
I wish you could be our admin again
Me too @dumbsearch2
I hope you never leave OS, you are the only hope we have :'(
He is an admin, just without coding.
He can still code.
But he doesn't for OpenStudy anymore.
Yes, but he no longer codes for openstudy. He has admin privs just doesnt work for OS
Yes but he has the access to do it, just he doens't work here anymore.
Forever will we miss you shadow, all we have now are supposed "admins" but I fear we have little to none xD
They are ghost admins lol right @dumbsearch2
"Access" yes. Technically a person who works at area 51 has indefinet access to the facilities as long as they dont give up information. Now, am I comparing @shadowfiend to someone who works at area 51 no. Nor, am i comparing Openstudy to area 51. We still have a great team of admins but the original's were still very much the best of the best.
The spelling in that sucked
Lol. What team of admins. List one new feature
All we have are amazon techs and maybe a few (1-4) admins who just put bandaids on this website.
Does Chris still work on the site?
1-4 admins? Lol I guess 1
Yes Ja. Does he?
The problem lies with the congestion with the servers Interesting!
Chris abandoned the ship a long time ago.
Exactly! Now if we could only get some blasted funding to the site to get larger better servers we could expand the site tremendously.
@zscdragon Please, never close this thread. This is historical. Lol.
man.. if only electrons move faster..
haha sure ;)
We need to write a letter to Bill Gates and have him fund us again.
@.Sam. should delete this with an absolute disregard for all things historical simply out of the meanness in his heart...
Actually, we should seriously write him, he is a philanthropist.
Lol he is also a masseuse
Anyways, now I won't have to go through the burden of going through all my PHP code for my social media site and convert it to node.js and sockets. Byebye! :) Off to programming!
@shadowfiend Works full time as a Masseuse...I know because it shows up in hidden places all over the site.
Honestly OS needs a revamp, forget the Hackathon, it's too small with not many coders, we need to start writing some letters, calling some numbers, and get some serious funding and get new admins, new servers, bring back the old admins and have them help out with the new site, then get some good collaboration from users and get new mods, new system, neew everyhting, we need to respark that candle that is long since turned off.
Who here agrees!
But jokes aside, we really need something new, OS is dying, maybe not as fast as we think but it is dying. @Preetha
Yes. And we three programmers could help when necessary :)
*cough* I am not a programmer *cough*
But heck, I could learn in no time, the only reason I don't l know much programming is because I have no motivation to learn, but if we were to seriously make this new OS I would pitch in 140%
Scala is a relatively easy language, and besides, I got a couple of buddies that would help wonders here.
It is *not* easy, @JA1 But you're smart :) You could learn in like 2 months :)
PSSHTT you underestimate me dumb, I know nothing about programming, but I can learn any language in under one month, scala is a fancy JAVA nothing more.
I learned HTML/CSS in under a week but then again that's a grade school langauge lol
2 months is very short to *master* a language.
Obkect oriented is much harder
You learned every single CSS code in a week? Lol
Master is another concept, just the basics is what you need.
Lol xD I know you could do it... Haha
Let's start soon.
But I need motivation ;-; @Preetha
I have to be heading out for some programming, so see you peoples :)
BULL! Not to be rude AT ALL, but there is no way under the sun to fully learn and flawlessly execute a coding language in under one week. ANY coding language. That is just as difficult as learning Japanese in a week and speaking it fluently.
If preetha goes down with this new funding and new OS thing then I will quickly join in.
damn u guys are such geniuses.. :S
aw, nah @zscdragon :]
HTML is a basic language and is not object oriented, very easy to learn in one week....
How old are you guys anyway.
HTML, yes, (if you work on it a lot), but CSS, NO.
CSS may take longer to "master" but HTML can be learned in days xD
@SnuggieLad Take a chill pill. Are you okay?
I was just asking...
You don't know, snuggie? Let's turn that back to you. How old are YOU?
He is 17..
I have the memory of an elephant...
@SnuggieLad Why does it matter? Your question appears to be a direct result of wanting to be rude
You're going to break the record for longest post :P
@hartnn you are so chill xD
lol that's what happens but oh well, preetha get's the message of the whole revolution thing.
good we all chill now #sochill
I'm deleting it. ":3
We'll all be chill then ;p
WE STILL FIGHTING geezus
Forgive ok...Forget No. No, We are not fighting.
i didnt eevryone saw you were abusing are very respectable user @SnuggieLad not once,But like 10 times :3
Thank you Uri
History < FUTURE
Forgiven as I said sean. But not forgotten.
But if you forgave him no need to feel any resentment towards him.
I wish i could give snuggie the medal.
but thomas gets it xD
Shadowfiend deserves the medal :) He is so intelligent!
For you? for me thomas.
Thomaster is so smart too :)
This is getting awkward haha
I agree, fully.
Sarcasm ^ aye :P
No, not sarcasm.
He is really smart.
Okay I am off guys, and uri be nice to dumbby and seriously no more arguing over such a mediocre topic.
Me too :) Bye all