anonymous
  • anonymous
Hello, can someone help me out with lewis structures, my dutch book says that the lewis structure of sulfate ion is: http://gyazo.com/3b9e246a2b60ace57adaf1537cc4431f.png . The thing im confused about in the above structure is the fact they didnt even indicate the charges for the S and other 2 O's! While my English book says we use the following lewis notation since its has the lowest magnitude of (formal) charges: http://gyazo.com/2a936aad8d85f0ead1a1fd6ff1d5496c.png Im really confused with this, because I would like to know which is the real deal. Can someone pls help me out? Thanks
Chemistry
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chestercat
  • chestercat
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aaronq
  • aaronq
in the first image the charges \(are\) indicated, in the [ ] the charges are on the outside, like this \([ \;\;\;]^{2-}\)
anonymous
  • anonymous
:D I mean the difference between 1 & 2: 1) http://gyazo.com/3b9e246a2b60ace57adaf1537cc4431f.png 2)http://gyazo.com/2a936aad8d85f0ead1a1fd6ff1d5496c.png
aaronq
  • aaronq
to be honest i've never seen it drawn with dative bonds, but to my knowledge sulfur can have up to 6 bonds because it can access low energy d orbitals. maybe @Frostbite can offer us some further insight!

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Frostbite
  • Frostbite
What ever it is I'm tired and can't help! T_T
anonymous
  • anonymous
yes I know this book makes me go crazy, but its how we were taught chem in Belgium :p
Frostbite
  • Frostbite
You are confused about what notation you should use?
anonymous
  • anonymous
yes, I would like to know what the real lewis notation is 1) or 2) Cause the dutch science moderators say its the one with single dative bonds, and the american chemists say its the one with double bonds.
anonymous
  • anonymous
Can I please know which notation you used in highschool Frostbite?
Frostbite
  • Frostbite
Well I don't know if @aaronq can agree to this, but: A REAL Lewis structure would be the one to the left, however it it more appropriate to use the structure to the right as it then take into account that the charges are not localized (we can show this using resonance structures and evaluate their contribution to the real molecule)
Frostbite
  • Frostbite
Same principal goes for pyrophosphate.
Frostbite
  • Frostbite
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Pyrophosphate_anion.png
anonymous
  • anonymous
lol Frostbite :D but im not asking whether the left or right structure is the one used, they are the same. Im asking whether you used 1) or 2) in highschool: 1) http://gyazo.com/3b9e246a2b60ace57adaf1537cc4431f.png 2)http://gyazo.com/2a936aad8d85f0ead1a1fd6ff1d5496c.png
Frostbite
  • Frostbite
Both :)
anonymous
  • anonymous
so you have really seen both double and single bonds in the sulfate ion in highschool in Denmark? :o
aaronq
  • aaronq
the bonds with the arrows (in the first image) are not single bonds, they're dative bonds.
Frostbite
  • Frostbite
I look up in C. E. Housecroft and see what she say, but 2) is the most used for me.
anonymous
  • anonymous
those are single dative bonds :o, they are not double, dative means one atom gives 1 electron pair away. I dont think dative bonds are the same as double bonds?!
aaronq
  • aaronq
sorry you're right. Though, i don't think they're considered the same as single bonds, since the electrons both come from the ligand.
anonymous
  • anonymous
Can I please know which one you have used in highschool?
aaronq
  • aaronq
i've never seen the one with the coordinate bond, only the double bonds.
Frostbite
  • Frostbite
Sorry now when I also read a bit about it I also agree. (had to understand what a dative bond even was) there was no translation in Danish.
anonymous
  • anonymous
ow ok thanks!! Weird that they use a dative bond here. I will use 2) for now since most people on the internet tell me its 2)
anonymous
  • anonymous
I forgot to ask why in the first lewis structure: 1) http://gyazo.com/3b9e246a2b60ace57adaf1537cc4431f.png the formal charges of the other 2 O's and S are NOT indicated! Can someone help me with why that is?
abb0t
  • abb0t
Sulfur has a charge of \(2^-\) .
anonymous
  • anonymous
I know this : 1) http://gyazo.com/3b9e246a2b60ace57adaf1537cc4431f.png notation isnt used much, but in belgium it is used so I wonder why (youre right) they dont put 2- for sulfur & -1 for the other 2 oxygens in : 1) http://gyazo.com/3b9e246a2b60ace57adaf1537cc4431f.png. ?
aaronq
  • aaronq
you're asking why they didn't write the formal charges?
anonymous
  • anonymous
yes aaronq, they did only write the charges for 2 O's :(
aaronq
  • aaronq
i'm really not sure. If i was you i wouldn't even worry about it (unless your teacher is drawing them specifically in this way) because i don't think it's more accurate in representing reality or that it is more beneficial in understanding the concept.
aaronq
  • aaronq
If you still wanna know, you should ask the person who gave you that picture.
anonymous
  • anonymous
ok thanks for the advice arronq. I really appreciate it :)
aaronq
  • aaronq
no problem, dude

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