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InspiredAtheist Group Title

How can you call your religion that correct one? Provide your evidence

  • 5 months ago
  • 5 months ago

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  1. thomaster Group Title
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    You can't, every religion would say theirs is correct, and they would all provide their "holy" book as the evidence.

    • 5 months ago
  2. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    There are many false religions out there. I'm a Christian because of the overwhelming amount of evidence there is for it. All the other leaders of world religions died. But Jesus rose from the dead! There are many historical and written facts of this, even from secularists who were horrified! The Bible contains no contradictions or errors either. There are hundreds of prophesies that are written thousand years prior that came true. I could go on and on.

    • 5 months ago
  3. thomaster Group Title
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    I don't know which version of the bible you've read, but the original one contains many contradictions and errors. I was a christian, but I quit the whole religion thing because of the overwhelming lack of evidence. Even the quran is more credible than the bible, which I believe is also a fairy tale...

    • 5 months ago
  4. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    Though I don't wish to get into a religious debate with you, I would like to see some of these supposed contradictions. I normally do NIV when reading in English. Otherwise, i do New Testament in its original Greek.

    • 5 months ago
  5. thomaster Group Title
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    Well we could start by one of the 10 commandments, thou shalt not kill. Do you know how many rules in the bible justify killing?

    • 5 months ago
  6. thomaster Group Title
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    If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15) Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)

    • 5 months ago
  7. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    First, one must realize that not all killing is the same. There's a big difference in the Hebrew 10 commandments in which the word ratsach best translates to "murder". God does not kill without a reason and fair warning. He has given everyone tons of chances, yet they refuse. They basically walk into their own death. Murder is killing the innocents. None of the people God commanded to kill were innocent. They broke the Law, and did not turn from their sinful ways. The wages of sin is death. Now, we realize where killing and death came from. In the Garden of Eden, there was no killing or death. Death is the result of a fallen world, the result of sin. God is the ONLY righteous judge. He spared those who were righteous and destroyed the wicked.

    • 5 months ago
  8. thomaster Group Title
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    Now why is Allah not a righteous judge? The Muslims have a similar rule: kill the idolaters wherever you find them and take them prisoners, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. So this is how we get ourselves a war, with idiotic rules like these. If I was born in Iraq like my friend, I would be a muslim too instead of a christian. Why are you not a muslim? because if you were born in Iraq you most likely would be.

    • 5 months ago
  9. ikram002p Group Title
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    well , before involved in any religion believe in God is much imp so , u have too choises 1_dnt believe 2_ belive if u chose the second one , any questions u have to ask why there is God ? why should i believe ? how many God ? why the God create us ? ..... ect so then u goes to the roligion :O

    • 5 months ago
  10. ikram002p Group Title
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    @thomaster lol i dare u to find an ayah in quran that tell ppl to kill :D

    • 5 months ago
  11. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    I am not a Muslim because I'm a Christian. Not really sure what your question is.

    • 5 months ago
  12. ikram002p Group Title
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    unfortunatly ppl judge islam from ppl they met not from islam concipt itself :D

    • 5 months ago
  13. thomaster Group Title
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    My question is, if you were born in a muslim country, would you still be a christian? and @ikram002p Surat At-Tawbah 9:5

    • 5 months ago
  14. ikram002p Group Title
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    And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." this ayah ia talking about a spicific case happined in ancient time it tell that there r 4 month u cant make a war in them (which is general) then after 4 month war allowed but as i said it happiend in spisific fight in ancient time :D it dnt tell all muslim to kill

    • 5 months ago
  15. thomaster Group Title
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    Oke, so now back to the original question. How can you prove that another religion is false, without providing an unreliable source like the bible or quran as evidence?

    • 5 months ago
  16. ikram002p Group Title
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    well as i answerd before prove or disprove make no sense without believe :D but i think religion + believing should have no contradiction if a contradiction exist then its false

    • 5 months ago
  17. Opcode Group Title
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    I will be continue @ikram002p argument. Set forth the motion that your holy book has not one discrepancy or contradictions. Say this holy book has information that wasn't known at the time. (Though we know that the earth was speculated flat as far back as the Greeks.) We can logically assume this book is of divine revelation. It stays of this status until one can disprove it. Such as, showing the contradictions of it. It isn't for religious people to prove or disprove things (religious people only need belief not proof), rather science to disprove things. Now the problem lies with burden of proof. We cannot simply disprove God's existence. However we can disprove religious text. (That is where Agnostic Atheism plays toward.) They search and find these contradictions and discrepancies which reaffirm them in saying that God does not exist. (The 'God' of THAT religion.) \[\textbf{Personal opinion:}\] I for one am sure of a God, as we live in a rational and logical world made of laws. We have no choice but be a slave to these laws. As we see in our world a system of hierarchy in which more complex and rational beings are at the top. Eventually as we climb this tree we must reach perfection. This perfection is were these laws must originate from. (God.) There are many other types of arguments that stem from logical derivatives for God's exists such as the Kalām cosmological argument. (So you'd need to disprove such arguments too to finally have an agreement that God plainly does not exist.)

    • 5 months ago
  18. Opcode Group Title
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    Nearly for forgot to give an example that talks about religions that cannot be disproved, such as deism.

    • 5 months ago
  19. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    @thomaster - Someone may grow up as one religion, but when they are of age to make their own decisions, its their responsibility to decide for themselves.

    • 5 months ago
  20. thomaster Group Title
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    @PixieDust1 So from what you're saying, I can assume you did an extensive research on the other religions, to decide which one you deem the right one... correct?

    • 5 months ago
  21. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    If your asking if I made my own educated decision, then yes, you could say I did.

    • 5 months ago
  22. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    I have done extensive research for myself, and I have found so much evidence for Christianity.

    • 5 months ago
  23. thomaster Group Title
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    So you did not extensively researched other religions? And by extensive I mean fully understanding other religions like you understand Christianity?

    • 5 months ago
  24. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    Yes, i did extensive research on both Islam and Atheism, trying to understand exactly what they believe and why. The Quran contained so many errors/contradictions within itself and with known-history that I could not possibly believe something with so many errors. Mohammed died, just like all the other false prophets. There is no evidence that he rose from the dead or was brought up to heaven.

    • 5 months ago
  25. thomaster Group Title
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    So, I find it funny that Muslims who I know in person, did exactly the same, and they all brought up the exact same arguments as you just did... The bible contained too many errors to be plausible. So how is that possible? They even brought up scientific articles proving some major errors in the bible.

    • 5 months ago
  26. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    First of all, their Mohammed did not rise from the dead (at least there is no evidence of it). Meanwhile, hundreds of people saw Jesus after his crucifixion. (Even secular people who saw Jesus resurrected wrote of it, and they were horrified.) And they can claim the Bible has errors, but without them giving any examples, that is not based in truth. If you have any examples of where the Bible contradicts itself, please tell me. I'd love to know. There are hundreds of alleged contradictions... none of which are ever true.

    • 5 months ago
  27. thomaster Group Title
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    Also, the quran says that the prophet Muhammad died and his spirit ascended into heaven. Now I wouldn't consider this evidence, as it's just written in an old book. But if you claim that because Jesus' death and resurrection followed by him being brought up to heaven was written in the bible, it is evidence, you can't say that what's written in the quran is not evidence.

    • 5 months ago
  28. thomaster Group Title
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    Though discussing contradictions would be off topic for this particular question, I could surely give an example. 2 Samuel 8:3-4 Then David defeated Hadadezer, the son of Rehob king of Zobah, as he went to restore his rule at the River. David captured from him \(\bbox[1pt,red]{\sf{\color{white}{1,700\ horsemen}}}\) and 20,000 foot soldiers; and David hamstrung the chariot horses, but reserved enough of them for 100 chariots. 1 Chronicles 18:3-4 David also defeated Hadadezer king of Zobah as far as Hamath, as he went to establish his rule to the Euphrates River. David took from him 1,000 chariots and \(\bbox[1pt,red]{\sf{\color{white}{7,000\ horsemen}}}\) and 20,000 foot soldiers, and David hamstrung all the chariot horses, but reserved enough of them for 100 chariot.

    • 5 months ago
  29. thomaster Group Title
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    In 2 Samuel 24:1 it was the lord who told david to number israel. but in 1 Chronicles 21:1 it says that it was satan who provoked david to number israel... And there are numerous of these small contradictions or disparities. Though these are not a real issue. It's the big mistakes and errors in the bible that are.

    • 5 months ago
  30. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    Okay! I'd love to address these contradictions. As for the 2 Samuel 8:3-4 vs 1 Chronicles 18:3-4 alleged contradiction, we must remember that every Bible back in the old days was written by hand by scribes. Some of the versions of these handwritten Bibles do contain a copyist error. But here, we also see that 2 Samuel is talking about the first confrontation, at the huge surrender of 20000 men at the beginning of the confrontation. The second report (1 Chronicles) is after the escapees had been taken on at a little later point. So, no contradiction. As for2 Samuel 24:1vs 1 Chronicles 21:1, this is neither a contradiction. In 2 Samuel, God was angry and incited David to number Israel. God was teaching David to trust Him rather than just his soldiers. But God used Satan to make this move (1 Chronicles). God either sent Satan or allowed Satan to incite David. God's authority is over Satan. Neither of these contradict. Please show me some actual contradictions.

    • 5 months ago
  31. thomaster Group Title
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    As I said, contradictions are not the big deal, it's the errors that we proven wrong by scientific research. Almost every contradiction in the bible can be covered up by "copyist errors".

    • 5 months ago
  32. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    Only numbers and small spelling are considered copyist errors. And I gave you an explanation other than copyist error too.

    • 5 months ago
  33. Opcode Group Title
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    The bible contains quite a lot of logical flaws, apologists normally just pass them off as misinterpreted or mistranslated. I will give an example, you refute the example, then I'll show you why it cannot be refuted. Revelation 19:6 Luke 18:27 Luke 1:37 Jeremiah 32:17, 27 Job 42:1-2 Genesis 18:14 All say god can do ANYTHING. Then: Judges 1:19 Mark 6:5 Hebrews 6:18 Contradict with that those statements. Now refute this claim. @thomaster Qur'an does not talk about Muhammad (PBUH) going to heaven, it is hadith that say that. Surah 53 (An-Najm) does tend to be interpreted that Muhammad (PBUH) went to heaven but not after he died. It is more understood that his rouhi (soul) went to heaven, not his physical body.

    • 5 months ago
  34. thomaster Group Title
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    @Opcode Well I got this info from a fellow student who is a muslim, and like I said: his spirit ascended to heaven. Kinda similar to soul. I never mentioned anything about physical body.

    • 5 months ago
  35. Opcode Group Title
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    Sorry, I should have clarified myself. You said, "Muhammad died." Qur'an was written during he was alive. There isn't a passage/surah that I have come across saying he died and went to heaven. (Qur'an is mostly in present tense, because of this nothing is written of his death. (Other than not to worship him after he died.))

    • 5 months ago
  36. thomaster Group Title
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    Now that we're at it, a few more contradictions. Genesis 3:9, 10; 32:30 Exodus 24:9-11; 33:11, 23 Isa 6:1 Say that god is seen and heard Exodus 33:20 John 1:18; 5:37 1 Timothy 6:16 Say that god cannot be seen or heard

    • 5 months ago
  37. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    Opcode, I will happily refute this claim. Let's start with Judges 1:19. Judah was in rebellion against the Lord. God is able to drive them out, yet He choose not to. Judah's sins caused God to not aid them to victory. There is a difference of God being with someone, and God actually helping them. I can be standing with you, but I might not be helping you. Simple. As for Mark 6:5, few people in that town believed Jesus. The unbelief there was huge. Jesus did very few mighty works in that town who rejected Him. When we read onto the next verse (context is valuable), we see Jesus gives a reason for not doing as many mighty works. This reason was the lack of faith the people in that town had. Also simple. Hebrews 6:18 is talking of God's immutability. His council and Oath will not change. Since God does not lie, His word cannot change, meaning we can take refuge in His promises. Also very simple. No contradictions here either.

    • 5 months ago
  38. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    Both of you have not been able to prove an contradictions in the Bible.

    • 5 months ago
  39. Opcode Group Title
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    Yes, but God being almighty wouldn't it make more sense to help than not help? Also it is not of Judah's sins rather because the chariots are of made out of iron. "And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." If Hebrews 6:18 is implying of God's immutability. Why not clearly say that? The bible is clear on other things, or perhaps you are trying to bend meaning? Provide an excerpt "proof" that that is what 6:18 means otherwise the claim is invalid. Mark 6:5 "And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them." Emphasis on: "And he could do there no miracle work." The next part provides no logical concept of why not, just reason. If Jesus is the lord then nothing should be impossible for him. "He was amazed at their lack of faith. Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village." (Reason, but not logical. Jesus is almighty, nothing should trouble him.) (btw, can we clarify which version of the bible you want to use?)

    • 5 months ago
  40. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    And for your claims, Thomaster, -Exodus 33:20 The actual sight of God would kill human upon sight. It is so amazing and powerful. While in the flesh, we would die if we saw God. - John 1:18 Jesus saw God when He was in heaven, not when He came down to Earth in the form of man (flesh). - John 5:37 Jesus is talking to a specific group of people, not everyone. Note the word *you*. - 1 Timothy 6:16 Humans cannot see God. They would die immediately upon the sight. - Genesis 3:9, 10 Yes, God can talk to people. John 5:37 was about the specific people Jesus was talking to. - Exodus 24:9 God in a vision they had. - Genesis 32:30 God is all powerful, He can do anything. Note, this was not God in His godly form, it was God in an angel. - Isaiah 6:1 Vision, once again

    • 5 months ago
  41. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    @Opcode - I read Greek, so I normally do NT in Greek. But I guess I normally do NIV/KJV for English (which i don't do that often). - God was angry at them for disobeying. He had a reason to not help them win. God can do anything, but the people feared the iron chariots and therefore didn't trust God to lead them to victory (God choose not to aid them to winning). - "two unchangeable things". Mean immutable. KJV uses the word immutable. It makes it very clear either way. - As I said before, He could do no miracle there BECAUSE of their lack of faith (the next verse goes on to say that. Context is vital.) Their little faith is what caused them to not have any miracles performed.

    • 5 months ago
  42. Opcode Group Title
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    "God was angry at them for disobeying. He had a reason to not help them win. God can do anything, but the people feared the iron chariots and therefore didn't trust God to lead them to victory (God choose not to aid them to winning). " There is no context to that, the bible already says the reason too. "because they had chariots of iron" It doesn't refer to God being angry. Anyway, I need to restart my computer. I'll finish refuting your claim. Later. :-) (btw, I am thinking about learning Greek, though I am currently studying Hebrew. Is Greek hard to learn?)

    • 5 months ago
  43. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    Its not too hard, but learning the alphabet itself can be pretty difficult. Most of the Greek alphabet is the same as the English alphabet in pronunciation and letting form. But sometimes it can be confusing. The letter "v" in English is pronounced "n" in Greek. It took me a long time to learn to read Greek. But after the alphabet is fully understood, it really is a simple language. As far as grammar and stuff, I would consider it very basic. I learned the basics of Greek language in 4 days when my pastor taught a class on it, and I've been teaching myself ever since.

    • 5 months ago
  44. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    Yup, and just to give you a little background on this *context is key*, at the time, Judah was doing evil against the Lord (serving false gods, breaking laws, acting evil and immoral, etc etc.) God ultimately had a bigger plan for Judah. When they relied only on their own strength, and did not trust in God, they feared those iron chariots. Judah's courage failed when they saw the iron chariots. So even though God was there, their faith failed, and Judah could not drive the iron chariots out of the valley.

    • 5 months ago
  45. KenLJW Group Title
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    Read the original constitution, it has 7 articles, heads, and the Bill of Rights, 10 Amendments, horns or powers, then read Revelations 13. The leopard is the Federal Government and the States are the spots. Follow this point of view as you read through it and most of it is self evident. The prophecy was given 1900 years ago and was given so you would know that it wasn't written after the event which is assumed in the Old Testament. If you need further interpretation of it let just ask.

    • 5 months ago
  46. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    @thomaster all your arguments you use "scientific HUMAN reasoning and response". @PixieDust1 has thumped your claims quite well with TRUTH given to the gospel writers THROUGH the Holy Spirit TO the writers(who are human) and make errors. But there is NO way GOD would let HIS WORD get flawed and have HUGE mistakes. Let me ask you this question. Can you prove (with your human logic and thinking) that God does not exist?? I recommend you go see the movie God's Not Dead, it is about basically exactly what you are debating. And if that doesn't clarify the situation with these so called "facts" you want, then check out the books by Lee Strobel, they are entitled "The Case for (Christ, The Creator, Faith, Easter, Christmas, etc.). Lee was a devout atheist and went into a deep, long research to try and prove that God does not exist. To say it short, he failed and became to know and accept Jesus during his "research", due to his failure to disprove and the overwhelming PROOF of God and Son.

    • 5 months ago
  47. KenLJW Group Title
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    Any "Theory" can never be proved only disproved or affirmed. The theory of "Gravity" has never been disproved, at least not to my experience" but it has been affirmed many times, so much so that its considered a physical law.

    • 5 months ago
  48. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    A human. Law.

    • 5 months ago
  49. thomaster Group Title
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    I don't see a point in further discussion. Whatever I say, you guys will figure a way to dispute it, the same way I will dispute whatever you tell me. Fact is, Neither of you truly knows if there is a god or not, you just believe so. And I believe the opposite. Neither of us can prove or disprove the existence of this deity. let's give it a try: The bible says in Genesis 1:16 that god created 2 lights, the sun and the moon. This I would find a major flaw, since the moon is just a flying rock in space, and not a light at all. It's just reflects some light from the sun. It is also strange that it took God a day to make the sun and the moon, but the stars are portrayed as an afterthought of sorts. "He made the stars also", this is a definite sign that the bible is inspired by man. It is clear that man could not have perceived that the stars were the same as the sun, but in most cases much larger.

    • 5 months ago
  50. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    A flying rock in space that gives light. Whether through its own power or by reflecting sun, still light.

    • 5 months ago
  51. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    "It is clear that man could not have perceived that the stars were the same as the sun, but in most cases much larger." What is this jibber jabber? What are you trying to say? Us humans have come up with that from looking through man made telescopes and satellites?

    • 5 months ago
  52. KenLJW Group Title
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    I had two cats when I lived in CA and never had kitty litter. I left a window open year round for the cats to come and go. Eventually both cats were hit by cars and died, the price of freedom in a dangerous world. When the ancient Hebrews came out of Egypt, bondage, they were given instruction on how to live free in this dangerous world and admonished if not followed there would have consequences, not so much by him but by the world. I was once told every refuge has it cost and freedom requires responsibility. Whether you believe in God or not you must admit their something outside of you that you must adapt to, maybe even effect, and develop a moral stance which for any individual I would call their god.

    • 5 months ago
  53. thomaster Group Title
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    @lo-siento-mi-amor Yea us humans discovered that, we didn't come up with that. You're one of those people who believes the universe revolves around the earth? Man came up with god to have an explanation for things that could not have been explained in that time. It's way too simple: We see lightning, we don't understand where it comes from --> god made lightning. That way they could explain everything, and control people at the same time by telling them they'd go to hell if they misbehave. People would get scared and would worship this god and follow the laws made up by the people who wrote the bible.

    • 5 months ago
  54. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    @thomaster I am starting to get the feeling you are putting too much emotion into your replies, because they are starting to become attacks. Where did you get those emotions from? A monkey i'm guessing? ( I take it you believe in Darwinism). I believe God created the whole Universe, a place for His creation, and other places we humans call planets, stars, and galaxies. Why are those they are? I don't know and honestly don't really care. I trust that God created them for a reason that I can't figure out. What is the need to figure out? My 90 years on life don't require me to go to the moon and/or explain the universe's existence. And this claim of using "God created it" as a "simple answer" is just the same as scientists working on a theory for something for their whole lifetime only to come up empty, and place a fake(maybe slight educated) theory on the reason. Nobody tries to fight it they go along with it, unless another scientist wants to come along and try it again. Am i right? That is not controlling people by God setting REASONABLE moral standards. Take those base rules away and what do you have? Take God away and what do you have? A population of murders, druggies, and psychopaths. Why? Because why not? There would be no laws or rules to follow, no reason to live a moral lifestyle. Lets just say "YOLO" would be the law of the land. The population would rise first from all the sex, but then it would decline because all the stds that would spread, all the babies that would die(because their parents would want to finish up their own life with some fun). Last time the whole earth decided to deny God, He flooded the whole place. Since He promised to never do that again, I expect He would use some crazy raging fire across the earth. Oh wait, Jesus came, died, rose again, then went to heaven to some day(soon) return to bring His followers home. Do you not want to be apart of that? Whats wrong with being apart of that? Because you have that thought what if God doesn't exist? Then what, you die and your done. BUT you lived a life helping others, having and giving LOVE, trying not to do wrong, etc. Whats wrong with that? What if you live that way (not believing in a Savior) to die, and go to hell? And your like oh crap I should have listened and taken the opportunity while I had the chance, because that's eternity. No fixing or changing that. I frown upon non believers and atheists because i feel they are missing out on a chance of Jesus. Atheists have pride that they aren't "foolish" for believing in something without this HUMAN proof. People frown upon believers because they think we are foolish for believing in something. Well it doesn't matter to me, because in the end it wont matter if atheists frowned on me, they frown on Jesus as well. And i will be later be looking down on them from the gates of heaven. Thomaster, would you like to give God a chance to show you He loves you?

    • 5 months ago
  55. thomaster Group Title
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    I gave this "god" a chance to show it. He didn't show anything. I also refuse to blindly believe what's written in any religious literature. It would be the same as believing Stephen Hawking's books, except that one is actually credible. The point is: what's the point of a religion? We don't need it, that's for sure. I find the concept of a religion very outdated. Sure it was good to have an explanation for things we didn't understand, but we're discovering more things every day. I stepped away from religion because it didn't add anything to my life. So why do you think we still need a religion?

    • 5 months ago
  56. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    Re read the last half of my previous response. Real Christianity isn't a religion, you don't "act religious" You have a relationship with Jesus Christ, that is mutual trusting, serving, and loving. Your right we don't need "religion". Your right it is outdated. Now "religions" are associated with cults, and politics. Try having a relationship with Him and you will feel and see the difference. Maybe He didn't show it because your not truly showing Him that you want to. Sure we discover new things everyday, but how much of it do we really understand? Like truly comprehend? Our minds though great and expansive still have limits. We can only understand something soo much and so many things.. So there has to be a creator that created and understands it ALL. Again, what does it hurt to have a relationship with Jesus? Some time studying your bible to learn more? A few minutes talking to him? 2 hours of church on Sunday? For an eternity of greatness? Fair deal.

    • 5 months ago
  57. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    I just had to reply to this quote from Thomaster - "It's way too simple: We see lightning, we don't understand where it comes from --> god made lightning." Actually sir, its really not like that. Let me use Isaac Newton as an example. At the time, the world of science was dominated by the Greek ideas. Newton wasn't okay with just the "God made it" explanation. If God made it, Newton wanted to learn more about God's creation! One of the greatest scientists in the world was a Christian with a relationship with Jesus Christ; and no, he wasn't just satisfied with the simple "God made it". If Newton never made his important discoveries, where would the world of science be today?

    • 5 months ago
  58. Opcode Group Title
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    Isaac Newton actually questioned whether Jesus was God or even the son of God. In fact he wrote many books regarding theology. At some points he would even categorize himself as not orthodox Christian. (I remember asking a minister about a book that Newton wrote, he said that Newton was a heretic.) Newton did how ever say he was 100% certain of a masterful creator, aka God. I read a lot of his books when I was going from atheism to deism. He seems to be very influenced by Christianity but he never admitted to being Christian, as well as many of his books would contradict with what Christianity said. Isaac Newton did not want a relationship with Jesus, he wanted a relationship with logic and reason to obtain information of God. Have you read any books of which Newton comments on the Bible? You would be amused at what he was doing, he was trying to connect the dots from each passage. He was obsessed with finding a so called hidden message. Many people said he was a heretic for doing that, and I can see why. What he claimed he found was so different that orthodox Christianity. Francis Collins (the guy who used to run the gnome project) is a clear Christian. So that is an alternative to Isaac Newton. /* A contradiction */ http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Genesis-6-6/ http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Genesis-6-7 If Jesus is God an the Lord is another name for Jesus why would Jesus aka God be repenting? btw, I kinda disagree with Newton as he thinks God did not create the world purposely of sin. If God is all knowing and all powerful then most definitely God must have created the world with sin and evil.

    • 5 months ago
  59. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    To clarify your contradiction: repent means: to feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin God regretted making humans because they turned on him. He ordered them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and they did. They disobeyed, creating the first sin, so God made the land hard, and sin grew.

    • 5 months ago
  60. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    And I personally have no interest in Isaac Newton or what he believed. :P

    • 5 months ago
  61. thomaster Group Title
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    And I personally have no interest in Jesus Crist or what he believed. :P

    • 5 months ago
  62. Opcode Group Title
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    So by your definition God hates me? I find that oddly cold, if God regrets making us humans, that brings the question, why should we care about him, and if he regrets us why do we still exist?

    • 5 months ago
  63. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    And that's your decision and your eternity :)

    • 5 months ago
  64. thomaster Group Title
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    I would find reincarnation more plausible :D It's not like I'd go to hell and burn for eternity only for not believing in the existence of a supernatural deity. If that turned out to be true, it would be a particularly cruel god. Sending people to hell who have lived a good life, only because they didn't believe in him.

    • 5 months ago
  65. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    No not hate, read the old testament and you will find numerous situations where God punished humans for not doing what He said. He was actually very scary. Turning women into pillars of salt and stuff. Then along came His Son Jesus. who died so that when we do wrong we don't get turned into pillars of salt, because Jesus already took on a crucifixion.

    • 5 months ago
  66. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    Yes it is likely and you will :P Add up all the sin and torture here on earth all the heartaches and breaks and tragedies, multiply it by eternity and have fun down there. Is it cruel? Eh. to you maybe. What about you not believing? That's cruel to God. You not accepting His sacrifice, leaves you to the wolves.

    • 5 months ago
  67. thomaster Group Title
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    But then, you people say that god is forgiving. So he will forgive me for not believing. And therefore I won't go to hell :D

    • 5 months ago
  68. thomaster Group Title
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    Nothing to fear

    • 5 months ago
  69. thomaster Group Title
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    But then, If I believed in god, It would be cruel to Allah, and every other deity out there.

    • 5 months ago
  70. thomaster Group Title
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    Whatever I believe, I'm doomed. So there's my reason to stay atheist c:

    • 5 months ago
  71. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    Haha, He is forgiving if you trust and believe in Him. Yeah but those our "deities" there is only ONE true King ;)

    • 5 months ago
  72. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    *are not "our"

    • 5 months ago
  73. thomaster Group Title
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    So that brings us back to the original question. My muslim friend tells me Allah is the only one and provides the quran as evidence. You tell me god is the only one, what's your evidence? Let me guess, the bible? Still doesn't prove anything. You just have to believe that 1 of the many many gods it the true one and hope you're lucky to have chosen correct. The main factor is your birth location, if you were born in an arabic country, 90% change you'd be a muslim. We would have the same conversation but then you'd tell me that Allah is the true one. So your answer to the original question of this thread: How can you call your religion that correct one?

    • 5 months ago
  74. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    But see I did you give you the answer. Every response I made was giving light and proof to and through the bible. OF why its true. OF why God is who He says HE is and why that's His word. SO my answer short: The Holy Bible, word of God.

    • 5 months ago
  75. thomaster Group Title
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    That doesn't answer the question. If you got yourself into an argument with a muslim about which god is the true god, and you would both provide your holy pieces of literature as evidence, who is right? I don't see how it can be determined who was right.

    • 5 months ago
  76. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    I would say everything that i told you up there ^^^ to back up God's Word. Making it a credible piece of my relationship with Jesus.

    • 5 months ago
  77. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    I don't go around arguing/debating all day with Muslims any who :P I feel that my God and creator is the true only one. yes Muslims feel the same, they also think they get 15 virgins in heaven. i believe heaven is just a really awesome place that i cant define with human words.

    • 5 months ago
  78. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    Like you said, it can go all ways. Like if i asked you to prove your "atheist" "religion" what would you say? Well the Bible has flaws? So thats not true? It doesn't work for me. Just like my side doesn't work for you. So i leave it to the Holy Spirit to give you the truth.

    • 5 months ago
  79. thomaster Group Title
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    atheists do not have a religion. I believe the concept "religion" is made up by mankind to control the people. Kinda what governments do nowadays with their laws. It was necessary in the past to prevent wrongdoing and this was done by making the people scared of ending up in hell. Most people would abide by these rules. That's the reason religion is dying nowadays (at least where I live). And with dying I mean that religion becomes a less and less part of our lives. Where I live, only the old people and a very small fraction of the youth still believes in a god.

    • 5 months ago
  80. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    Again, its not my "religion" its my relationship :P

    • 5 months ago
  81. AlexPR787 Group Title
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    but isn't in it clear enuff that the signals that the bible says in apocalypse is happening isn't it accurate? just saying that its just a coincidence that the stuff the bible talks about is happening

    • 5 months ago
  82. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    We are starting to repeat ourselves now, so I would like to thank you for your input. I enjoyed our debate, and pray you open your heart and mind to Jesus before its too late ;)

    • 5 months ago
  83. AlexPR787 Group Title
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    amen

    • 5 months ago
  84. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    Yes, its pretty crazy Alex

    • 5 months ago
  85. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    He is coming!

    • 5 months ago
  86. AlexPR787 Group Title
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    so i strongly bealive in the lord and I'm waiting on the day he comes down from the heavens and gets us

    • 5 months ago
  87. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    Amen

    • 5 months ago
  88. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    @Opcode - Sir Isaac Newton was indeed a Christian, he almost became a pastor and spent the latter part of his life studying his Bible.

    • 5 months ago
  89. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    @Thomaster "If you got yourself into an argument with a muslim about which god is the true god, and you would both provide your holy pieces of literature as evidence, who is right? I don't see how it can be determined who was right." First off, just counting religious literature as inaccurate would be a misstatement. One must first determine if the literature contradicts itself, or known history. We see the bible does not (hence the entire debate we just had, Bible still proven infallible.) Next, we look at known history. Quran contradicts known history, bible does not.

    • 5 months ago
  90. KenLJW Group Title
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    To make clear terms I use Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 11th Edition, Religion n 13th century, 1a the state of a religious Religious adj 13th century, 1a relating to manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledge ultimate reality or deity, Using these definitions some worship an ultimate deity, God, while the atheist acknowledges an ultimate reality, at least what he assume is real to him today. Have you ever seen the sketch of a chalice that when you shift focus you see two female faces looking at each, in most psychology texts. Its a demonstration how two different things can be perceived depending on what you focus on, and my position is reality is like that.

    • 5 months ago
  91. Opcode Group Title
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    @PixieDust1 Isaac Newton was a deist that was influenced by the bible. He disagreed with mainstream Christianity according to what HE wrote. Also I am a historian, that has a lot of areas studied including some of the fine arts. I am pretty sure the Qur'an does not contradict history. Please provide a reference next time. :-) @thomaster There is no disagreement between any Abrahamic religion on which God is the right God. All Abrahamic religion must be monotheistic, i.e. one God. Juadism, Islam, Christianity all aim to pray to this one God. The disagreement is how, why. Nothing else really. :-)

    • 5 months ago
  92. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    Shall I quote from Newton himself? Principia: “This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all. . . . The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, absolutely perfect . . . and from his true dominion it follows that the true God is a living, intelligent, and powerful Being. . . . He is not eternity and infinity, but eternal and infinite; he is not duration or space, but he endures and is present.” “We account the scriptures of God to be the most sublime philosophy. I find more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history whatsoever.” He does speak of "God" a lot in his writings, not being specific to a certain "God". But his religious writings make it clear which God he is referring to, the God of the Bible.

    • 5 months ago
  93. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    @Pixie, they are just quoting of Wiki, if you go to Newton's wiki page it says there exact cases.

    • 5 months ago
  94. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    Oh xD, I should have figured that lol. And since you wanted to know some contradictions, @opcode, here they are. There are many many many, but I shall only post a few for now. The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses? "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12). "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143). "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132). Are Allah's decrees changed or not? "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34). "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115). None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106). When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).

    • 5 months ago
  95. Opcode Group Title
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    I am not quoting Wikipedia @Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor ... I wrote that Wikipedia page. ;-) Newton was a deist, he never openly said, he was a Christian. In fact he goes an a rant about how to chronologically pray to God over a lamb. (Manuel 1974, p. 61) Manuel also specifically tells us that Newton believed within an ideal Christian polity. Not that he was Christian. That Bible quote: “We account the scriptures of God to be the most sublime philosophy. I find more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history whatsoever.” Was written by Philip Shuttleworth, there isn't a sound agreement whether Newton actually said that. Oh, I also have studied about a little apologetics, it is not odd for many apologists to take things people say out of context. Until you can provide a piece that Newton wrote himself, saying that he was outright Christian I cannot agree with you. The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses? I remember this question, it is the same question that William Lane Craig uses, but doesn't except the answer. The answer is rather simple and comes from the Qur'an. The Qur'an states clearly that Muhammad was the first Muslim. (39:12) The rest you have is just a horrid translation, regarding the verbs, but if you want to overlook that, that is okay. I can still provide an answer. Abraham was a prophet, all sinless people according to the Qur'an must have been prophets. The Qur'an refers that we still believe that they are prophets. It doesn't state anything other than that. This argument is trying to take the passage out of context, which does not work because the Qur'an is meant to be order. (They are not in order chronologically, but it matters.) Are Allah's decrees changed or not? Different surah, you go from 6 to 2 to 16. As I said order matters.

    • 5 months ago
  96. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    Exactly my point of wiki.

    • 5 months ago
  97. Opcode Group Title
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    @Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor There is nothing wrong with the Wikipedia page, it is written in a neutral point of view, with a ton of resources proving he was a deist. If you ask any historian they will agree that Newton was just a deist influenced by the Bible.

    • 5 months ago
  98. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    I didn't say there was, BUT there is a reason why schools ask you to not use wiki for research ;) lol Influenced by the Bible that states the Trinity, and that our Savior Jesus has come and gone and to come again. If your influenced by something you usually believe it? or did Newton just believe some of it?

    • 5 months ago
  99. Opcode Group Title
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    If you look at the Wikipedia page, it has been locked by a bureaucrat. Meaning most of the information there has been verified by someone with a degree of some-sort in that area. (In this case it was locked from a guy with a Ph.D in Sociology an History.) Also there are plenty of .edu resources in the footnote. Newton was fascinated with God, he loved the idea, and found logic and reason behind it. He also love the principles of the Bible. He of course disagreed with a few passages and did voice his opinion on them. He may of been a Christian (I do not think so, nor does my professor.) but according to most modern Christianity he would be considered a radical Christian reformer. He did not believe Jesus was God.

    • 5 months ago
  100. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    "The Qur'an states clearly that Muhammad was the first Muslim. (39:12)" I guess we would exclude "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143) from Moses

    • 5 months ago
  101. Lo-Siento-Mi-Amor Group Title
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    Okay, i get what your trying to say, thank you for your elaboration.

    • 5 months ago
  102. Opcode Group Title
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    I am not understanding at what you are trying to imply? Muhammad was the first Muslim. Yes. Moses was the believer of truth among the other who didn't believe the truth. More or less what the KJV Bible teaches.

    • 5 months ago
  103. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    I'm asking who the first Muslim was. Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses? "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12). "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143). "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132). If Muhammad was first, then 7:143 and 2:132 are contradicting it.

    • 5 months ago
  104. PixieDust1 Group Title
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    Also found a quote from Newton stating his creed. [Yahuda MS 15.3, ff. 45-6. Cf. a short restatement of this position on f. 46v. Also Yahuda MS 15.5, f. 95v, and Keynes MS 3, pp. 43, 45.] "I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible, and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was buried, the third day rose again form the dead. He ascended into heaven and from thence shall come to judge the quick and the dead whose kingdom shall have no end. And I believe in the holy Ghost who spoke by the Prophets." Then he goes on to give the meaning of this creed to him.

    • 5 months ago
  105. KenLJW Group Title
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    At the end of Revelation you'll find that a Temple will be built to "God and the Lamb", two distinct beings which means at some point prior the "Christian" principle of the "Trinity" will be broken. My understanding of scriptures is Christ is not God, in fact always in the Gospel he acknowledges and honors the Father. In fact I believe God is the ultimate determiner not always giving the Son what he asks, because something's he holds for himself. Why all this talk about Newton, Descartes said "I think therefore I am" and when asked if he believed in God he replied "That is not in question". This is what science is about, Scientist ask the universe a question and see how it replies in accordance to the scripture "seek and ye shall find", of course I don't think all the questions have been asked yet. Some people may have other way's of asking questions but as always the answer must be confirmed.

    • 5 months ago
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